Posted on 01/24/2007 5:24:55 AM PST by Quix
Do you think there is ever a time when the spoken word of God could be of less effect than no word at all?
How does this "prove" anything? I don't need an elaborate answer, but at least acknowledge that I asked it, think a little bit, and give me a simple answer.
P.S. Please no more all caps. Remember that doing that is interpreted as the same as yelling.
Do you think there is ever a time when the spoken word of God could be of less effect than no word at all?
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I do not think the least hint in that direction.
The Scripture is clear about itself on that score.
God's Word is powerful--He spoke all that is into existence.
Methinks the title of the fine book . . .
YOUR GOD IS TOO SMALL
would fit a lot of the perceptions and constructions on reality which we read from the naysayers.
Amen! And that is no coincidence. God gave men the ability to speak in order to preach His glory and praise His name.
And it's through ears given by God that men know the truth of the Gospel. As you referred to Isaiah...
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11
How does this "prove" anything? I don't need an elaborate answer, but at least acknowledge that I asked it, think a little bit, and give me a simple answer.
P.S. Please no more all caps. Remember that doing that is interpreted as the same as yelling.
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I don't believe I can fruitfully convince of anything when the construction on reality is so dead set against a different reality. I'm inadequate to the task.
To me, it's exceedingly simple.
Give a tribal group the Scriptures only--orally. Return some weeks to months later and a I Cor 12-14 Church is alive and well including healings, deliverance, miracles.
NO bureaucracy did it.
NO thousands of encyclicals did it.
NO college of Cardinals did it.
NO papal pontifications did it.
NO prayers to Mary and a thousand other saints did it.
NOfaithful enactments of 100's of rituals and ceremonies did it.
NO magesterium and related pontifications did it.
NO idol veneration, attention thereto, adoration or worship did it.
NO edifices of tradition did it.
NO endless lists of formal bureaucratic customs, edicts and obediences did it.
NO 100's of 'Hail Mary's' did it.
NO 100's of 'Our Father's' did it.
NO amount of crawling on knees on marble floors and steps to kiss the well worn toes of papal statues did it.
NO amount of candle burning did it.
NO amount of women's covered heads did it.
. . .
. . .
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No. Construing ALL CAPS as yelling is a common convention. It's not the only possible one. We each have choices of how we construe stimuli.
I happen to not prefer that construction on net reality. I recognize I'm in a minority. That's OK. I'm sure many other posts by many other posters would be much more comfortable to read for the ALL CAPS allergic.
Indeed. Agreed.
Holy Spirit is great at putting such in hearts--all the more so when the heart has been exposed to Scripture.
Isn't there a verse about two witnesses . . . Spirit and Word? or is it Word and Blood or Spirit and Blood?
AMEN! INDEED, INDEED.
Methinks that perhaps your God is too small, to borrow a book title.
God has SUFFICIENTLY protected the ESSENTIALS OF HIS WORD to afford millions a sufficiently clear route to establishing a lasting eternal relationship with HIM regardless of so called "transmission errors," "copying errors" and pervesity of man deliberate bias translation errors.
He clearly does the same thing with these tribal groups.
It still shocks and surprises me that folks would have trouble with God being God. Kind of like He's stepped out from under their bureaucratic thumb somehow--shame on Him.
NOT!
AMEN! AMEN!
Please check your email.
IN THE NAME OF GOD?
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Actually, my impression is that God rather gets a humorous kick out of my ALL CAPS.
I guess He didn't go to the right attitude school.
Comparing a translating process--very straightforward and faithful to the best scholarship available . . .
comparing THAT
to the fossilized; calcified; towering; granite rigid; narrow; moss and lichen encrusted acres of traditions of the RC edifice is somewhat like considering
a gnat's . . . burp
to an ocean full of sperm whale's vomiting all the squid they'd eaten the last 10 years.
Amazing twisting of reality, to me.
I think your shouts of "success" and your exuberant celebration of "Houston, we have a church" are a little premature.
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Evidently God disagrees. He's been confirming with sign's following, just as Scripture teaches, right along from the beginning.
I guess God didn't get the RC memo. Maybe He has that channel on permanent IGNORE.
2,000 years is nothing, try 3,700.
That said, one large assumption that you made is the one that became the title of this thread: that a group of people, given only the Scriptures (via audio) and that have formed churches that fit a model that those who believe in Sola Scriptura consider to be Biblical proves that Sola Scriptura is true.
What I'm asking you is how giving a group of people the Bible in a vacuum, with no interpreter or outside influence, *proves* that Sola Scriptura is true. The result is the one that would be expected, when all you have given them is Scripture. I'm attempting to say (although perhaps not well) that if these people had lived in the same historical context as the Apostles and the rest of the Early Church, their theology and ecclesiology would have been that OF the Early Church. You neglected to answer that challenge in your prior response; instead you chose to dismiss it.
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Wellllll . . . my data and logic are as follows.
1. God says His Word will not return void.
2. Holy Spirit plus Scripture is exceedingly powerful in the lives of individuals and groups per Scripture and my extensive personal experience.
3. GOD SAYS HE will establish HIS CHURCH. I find no qualifiers nor prescribed flesh driven edifices hidden in those words. And, further, I've SEEN HIM DO IT.
4. Here we have an organization that has been planting oral Scriptures in tribal groups for 30 years. They have some significant track record and amount of follow-up research to support their claims.
5. One can rant and rave all the year long about how God is not staying in THEIR tidy little boxes as THEY'VE ASSUMEd HE HAS TO . . . but HE clearly is not paying attention to their intellectual, organizational, flesh driven tantrums.
6. Scripture plus obviously Holy Spirit enlivening Scripture in the hearts, spirits and minds of individuals and the tribe produces a I Cor 12-14 Church.
What is NOT Sola Scriptura about that?
what happens when these individuals begin to stray off or disagree, when there is no authority to guide them?
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, so now, we are supposed to say that
Jesus The Christ was lying or an idiot when
HE DECLARED that
HOLY SPIRIT WOULD LEAD INTO ALL TRUTH?
So, not only is Jesus now a liar, but Holy Spirit is incompetent?
I wouldn't want to tell The Father that to HIS FACE!
I think HE would WHOLESALE disagree, as do I.
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
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Oh, goodness, you MUST be WRONG, Dr E?!
You mean to tell me that Holy Spirit enlivened Scripture has no expiration date? You mean it's efficacious eternally?
I mean . . . some folks would have me believe that if someone hears the Scriptures . . . then within 30 seconds, they must have a troop of 100 ecclesiastical pontificators; another 100 Scriptural translation experts; another 100 interpretive pontificators; 25 supervising Bishops and Cardinals come along and explain every 3-5 word phrase MOST CORRECTLY else the hapless wallower in God's truth will STILL end up doomed to hell???
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Please excuse me while I go barf. This satire has been a bit much for even me.
It doesn't need to "prove" anything. We are commanded to preach the Gospel to all men, in season and out of season. God takes care of insuring the Gospel accomplishes everything He wills.
By virtue of Scripture being God's holy word and His instructions for correct living, then all the world profits by its proclamation.
But most assuredly, all whom have been appointed to eternal life will hear the Gospel with ears given by God, know the truth with a new heart given by God, and understand that their salvation has come about because Jesus Christ has mercifully paid for their sins in total, eternally, once for all time, as God ordained from before the foundation of the world.
"And when the gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
>>In the name of God, please TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK. It makes you look like a nutter.<<
I love ya man!
(How is your lovely wife?)
If our FRiends would only return to Scripture and read they would find the complete and transformative assurance that is God's word to His chidlren.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." -- Johm 5:24
Of course not, and I am not in any way denigrating the effort. I am just questioning the certainty of the triumph. As we know from the writings of Paul, this is no easy task.
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