Posted on 01/11/2007 10:55:59 AM PST by HarleyD
1 Peter 3:21 talks about the baptism that will save you. What baptism is being discussed in this passage?
Ameteurs. Ya wanna plane to yourself, pull out a prayer rug.
>> And though I am Catholic and believe fully in Church teachings I would rather a poor Catholic become a good Protestant then remain where they are not able to see and love Christ with their whole beings. <<
Cause, you know... they'll come back.
>> I found it interesting that the article stated that the reason Catholics record high numbers of new enrollments is because they count baptized babies. <<
The article is wrong. Both sets of membership data are compiled the same way: lists of members. If someone is baptized Catholic, but does not register in their parish at least every couple years, they will not be counted as Catholic. Likewise, MOST Protestant denominations include dependent children in their membership counts.
I am sorry! This writer needs an editor badly. Words in quotes, hyphenated words that could be left alone -- what IS it with writers who do not bother to edit their work? It is like Valley Speak. And he is so snide. uck. It totally takes away from what might otherwise, maybe, be presented as a thoughtful essay.
Agreed.
>> It is far better to be asking Jesus to take away your sins then to be asking Mary to ask Jesus to take away your sins <<
Yes, but it is still better to be joined in prayer with another, in Jesus' name. Rare and strange would be the Catholic who asks Mary to pray for him, but does not pray himself.
>> Last time I looked in my PROTESTANT Bible, the book of James was still there. <<
Yes, it was restored, along with Revelations, 1-2 John, and 1-2-3 Peter. But it is a historical fact that Luther insisted that they were not authentic scripture, and had them removed.
>> Obviously your not in the Boston area or over in Europe where grand cathedrals sit empty. <<
European Christianity, as a whole, whether Protestant or Catholic, is in dire straits. But the Catholic Church is far better off as of late than the Lutheran, Reformed, Presbyterian or Anglican churches. In nations such as Germany, for instance, the conservative parties (such as Christian Democrats) are successful largely in Catholic areas, and Catholic chuch attendance in many nations is quite respectable. In the UK, for instance, as many Catholics attend church each week as Anglicans, despite the 1:10 minority status.
Boston... well, we all know the troubles with Boston. I lived there.
P.S. Many of the grand European cathedrals were along pilgrim routes. Nimes, for instance, the grandest of European Cathedrals by many accounts, can hardly be expected to be filled with the small number of locals. When the Catholic Church shifted from monthly attendance to weekly obligation, parishes began to supplant dioceses (where Cathedrals exist) as the center of Catholic worship. And now, people fly directly to their destinations, rather than cathedral hopping along their way.
Thanks for the updates.
By the way, it's not inside baseball. ALCS is inside baseball. ;^D
Demographics - including urban flight - have a lot more to do with the closing of Catholic parishes. Sitting in Buffalo, where cathedrals sit empty and parishes are consolidating, the reasons are not uniform. New churches are being constructed in the suburbs, and are closing in rural and urban areas.
Incidentally, that is the situation with most mainline Protestant churches, and evangelical churches. The ones in the city are struggling (although one local megachurch is trying to open an urban campus).
Wouldn't it be better to be joined with someone who is alive. Don't you believe that God already know your request?
Yes, it was restored, along with Revelations, 1-2 John, and 1-2-3 Peter. But it is a historical fact that Luther insisted that they were not authentic scripture, and had them removed.
Whose history? They were never removed. When the first Bibles were printed (which the Roman Church Council of Trent forbid people to read) all those books were there.
Well, I would agree that demography plays a role. But I would suggest Christianity (all branches) in Europe and America is losing members-not gaining. 85% of American call themselves "Christians". Do we really believe that 85% of Americans are Christians?
The first bibles printed were Catholic bibles, so "of course" all those books were there. The only bibles the Council of Trent forbade the reading of were those which were either inaccurately translated or had Protestant-inserted errors and/or omissions.
The RC church has ALWAYS allowed the reading of scripture.
Not having known that Anglican orders had been declared invalid, I thought I could just be Anglo-Catholic without the Magisterium and the Holy Father. When the Episcopal church ordained Vicky Gene, I knew that they were no longer Christian; thus, the Anglican claim to be part of the historical Church couldn't be true, or they would never have made such a mistake. Where, then, does Truth lie? In the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the Holy Father. It was only after I had converted that I found out that Anglican orders had been declared invalid back in the late 19th century!
The other thing that propelled me quickly across the Tiber is the Church's uncompromising stance for Life. I saw that most dramatically in the witness of Fr. Frank Pavone and the Schindler family during the dreadful Terri Schiavo episode. The Schindlers' grace, fortitude, courage, and charity were so obvious during their ordeal, and I knew that they were able to get through it only by the special graces they had received from Jesus through the Church. They were a powerful witness!
"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living." (You know, "living," like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.)
Don't you believe that God already knows your request?
If that were relevant to the issue, one would never make any petitions in prayer ... which would be the opposite of what Christ and the apostles commanded.
Catholic dogma develops, but doesn't change. There's a difference.
You've got it all wrong. The circular logic lies in Protestantism, not in Catholicism. I addressed some of those issues here.
-Theo
I've enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you, Salvation, for the ping.
I especially enjoyed the discussion regarding the Sacraments. Dangus, you did a very good job with that part. I want to add something to this part, though. That is that the Sacraments are universal and didn't begin with Christ... they were rather given their fullest meaning in Him.
I'll explain...
First, the Seven Sacraments:
1. Baptism
2. Eucharist
3. Confirmation
4. Reconciliation
5. Matrimony
6. Holy Orders
7. Anointing of the Sick
In the opening of the Bible, we are before the days of Israel as God's chosen people, before the Law and pre-covenant. Yet, in this narration we find the Matrimony of the first couple, God's attempt at Reconciliation with Adam when confronting him in the Garden, the sacrifices of Cain and Abel to honor God, the Baptism and rebirth of the world through the waters of the flood, the priesthood of Melchizedek, the sacrificial offering of Isaac by Abraham, and the "coming of age" of Esau and Jacob with their father's blessing.
You can see these themes repeated with greater meaning througout covenantal history. The annointing of David makes him king and prophet of God. The Levites become a priestly people. Sacrifices are offered for the removal of sin.
What Jesus did and instituted in the New Covenant wasn't new. It was fulfilled, as He said. These things which we were obviously taught to do by God in the beginning were made new in the life of Christ. There is real power and depth in the Sacraments that reach to the firmament of creation.
When Jesus came to die on the cross for us, He didn't do something unknown. For hundreds of years, mankind had offered sacrifices to his gods. The Israelites were instructed by God how to offer rightly for the payment of sin. God instructed them to continue the Passover meal in remembrance of their salvation from bondage in Egypt. Jesus transformed the meaning of this meal into our Sacrament of the Eucharist in remembrance of His work of saving us from the condemnation of the Law.
God has given us a seamless whole throughout history and revealed His Glory in Christ. He didn't destroy His work in pardoning us of our sins by overturning what He had instituted from the beginning. He worked through His Own Laws and, in doing so, brought forth a renewed creation.
The Sacraments aren't something we do. They are something that God does for us. They aren't empty ritual or manipulating God into doing our will. They are our response to Him in doing His Will and they impart the Grace they signify.
Were they ever other than the mythical America of yesteryear that only existed in the minds of evangelical Christians?
Remember the Half-Way Covenant? It provided that children and grand children of church members were partial members of the church who had to accept the creed and rules of the church but did not have to follow all the teachings of the church nor could the half-members receive Communion or vote in church polity decisions.
These problems have always existed. It's only due to the myopia of nostalgia that we think otherwise.
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