Posted on 01/01/2007 3:34:16 PM PST by Salvation
What you term as an "AKA" is something that neither the Church nor any prominent Protestant Reformer (Luther, Calvin, Wesley, etc.) has ever believed.
Hang in there, you're bound to get it right sooner or later!
:-)
Despite what non-Catholics say about us, we actually do read the Bible once or twice a century and we're actually aware of these texts. Obviously we don't find them conclusive arguments against those doctrines that some find outrageous. For example we don't find what we call the Magnificat evidence of a sinful nature, and since we say that Mary's Immaculate Conception was made possible by the saving work of Christ, we don't find her calling God her Savior in those verses in anyway troublesome as far as that doctrine is concerned.
What I, personally DO find troublesome is that those who attack the doctrine so often do so before they find out what it is.
My experience here is that a lot of alleged conversations about these things go very bad very fast. And that's why if this turns out to be one of those, I'm not interested. I just don't think fights over these things get anywhere, and my experience on FR bears that out. They're not real conversations at all, they're just debates. Many of us would be happy to explore the doctrine and to attempt to explain it, but because all these conversations seem so readily to deteriorate into general mayhem involving ecclesiology, the role of Scripture in determining doctrine, and other things far, far afield from s close examination of the issue at hand, in this case what "Theotokos" means in itself and in our lives, that doesn't seem to happen very much.
I hope that's a sufficiently respectful and clear answer.
Thanks. We'll keep trying.
One verse in the Magnificat has been used by some to deny the Blessed Mother's status. While the rest of the Magnificat actually solidifies her Immaculate state and Elizabeth clearly declares her the Mother of God.
I gave up years ago, if something I say is confusing, y'all can just ask me what I meant.
Your answer bear out my judgments too.
Some of those threads got very nasty and confrontational. I pray this one does not go that way also.
**What I, personally DO find troublesome is that those who attack the doctrine so often do so before they find out what it is.**
Amen to that. Exactly why I posted the link to the Immaculate Conception threads. Knowledge helps, doesn't it?
BTW, your answer was very respectful. God bless you!
As a non-Catholic, I am not so troubled by what Catholics believe about Mary, but the heavy emphasis that is placed on Mary. It appears to many non-Catholics that Mary is the central figure to Catholics, and Jesus is some secondary character. Of course stating that will offend many Catholics and I will be attacked for it.
I can appreciate why some would feel this way, but that perception is still wrong.
>> As a non-Catholic, I am not so troubled by what Catholics believe about Mary, but the heavy emphasis that is placed on Mary. It appears to many non-Catholics that Mary is the central figure to Catholics, and Jesus is some secondary character. Of course stating that will offend many Catholics and I will be attacked for it.<<
No you won't be attacked because you said this, "It appears to many non-Catholics..."
That is honest and polite. It opens the way for us to understand how you feel.
There are many people here who can help you to understand our POV now since you have explained yours.
Thank you for being nice!
(and I'm an Anti-Catholic Troll Hunter)
I think Salvation means that Catholic discussion is preferred. It was certainly clear.
Salvation would prefer that the thread not be hi-jacked.
There are plenty of other threads that have gone over this subject again--and again--and again.
Catholics are not likely to change their doctrinal--or dogmatic--beliefs.
When I chose to become a Catholic, I didn't return to the Protestant denomination I left and quarrel with it. I acknowledged that I was grateful for the beginnings of my Christian life in a non-Catholic denomination and then occupied myself with my newly-received Catholic faith.
I have never stopped being grateful for coming into the Catholic Church.
Peace of Christ
ROE
"It appears to many non-Catholics that Mary is the central figure to Catholics, and Jesus is some secondary character. Of course stating that will offend many Catholics and I will be attacked for it."
I get that. If my first hearing of the Salve Regina had NOT been among good and holy Trappists, my then protestant hair would have curled. "Our Life, our Sweetness, and our Hope"? Are you kidding me? Jesus is THE LIFE, not his mother. But seeing these guys and having conversed with some of them and at length with the nun who I had come to visit, I had no question about their continuous self-offering to Jesus and I saw that even such apparently excessive language could only be understood properly in the context of the overarching commitment. (And it didn't hurt that it was a completly and ravishingly lovely song.)
But, yeah, some Calflicks have made like a sheep and gone astray.
But, consider, if you will, the privilege of being the God-bearer. I was the, ahem, primary care-giver of my one and only kid, and the eager self-sacrifice that involved, the alertness, the solicitude, the attentive awareness for nearly every waking minute, that was what parenthood in the early years meant to me. And that's what, in my rare moments of sanity, I wish for in my relationship with Jesus.
And, being of the guy persuasion as I am, I have no clue what it would be to be attentive to the Lord within me, as she must have been.
My point is that whatever else we might want to say about the God-bearer, she, as it were naturally, had the life of prayer that we pray to be granted, that we long to experience. Since it seems inevitable that, one way or another our hearts will be broken and pierced as hers was, can't you understand at least the impulse to look not only to our Lord but to His mother for some, ah, solace and guidance as we blunder through our lives? Yes, Jesus is THE paradigm, but at another level, His Mother is also someone whom I, what shall I say, admire deeply.
Very good post. Thanks
I can understand where you are coming from and I believe as the article states (and as you know) that Christ is the center of Catholic life.
**He is so with us that after Gabriel's visit to the Virgin of Nazareth, the Divine Word can never again be divided from our humanity. What God has joined, let no man separate.**
Thanks for your wonderful testimony and kind actions toward the church of your original beliefs. You are a true Christian and Catholic!
Mary if I understood correctly was born without Original Sin.
She lived her life choosing to be totally obediant to God.
Any comments further on this?
She was a very admirable and the world is indebted to her great faith and for bearing and raising our Savior and supporting Him throughout His life. That said, I have gone and visited many Catholic Churches and there are many where a big statue of Mary is on the alter and trying to find any hint of Jesus is like trying to find Waldo. To me, Mary was very humble and faithful servant and would quite possibly be offended by that much attention.
What you were looking for was probably "hiding in plain sight." Ever hear of a crucifix? Even better, the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Saviour was probaby in those churches as well.
A young man who is training now for his Holy Orders answered a ? I had about examinining/study of Catholic Doctrine and Scripture.
He said its like peeling an artichoke there is alway another layer to peel away exposing more.
Something to that effect.
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