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To: bornacatholic
The Church is not made by doctrinal lockstep of theology. If the Christians on this site would step out of their fleshly attitude we could unified in the love of Christ; therefore a subset of the church.

Unless as the RCC declares, we are not Christian.

There are countless millions who follow Christ yet hold no allegance to Rome. You do need to make up your mind if we are or are not saved. If saved, then we are part of God's Church.

So condemn, or get off the throne.
146 posted on 12/30/2006 7:04:38 PM PST by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: Rhadaghast
One can not be unified in love of Christ if one refuses to join the Church He established or to Worship as He Commanded. With all due respect, you are asking me to unify around indifference. That is precisely the opposite of Jesus' prayer in the Gospel of John.

These things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.

I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me out of the world. Thine they were, and to me thou gavest them; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known, that all things which thou hast given me, are from thee: Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them, and have known in very deed that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me: because they are thine: And all my things are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled. And now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy filled in themselves. I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.

They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world. Just Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee: and these have known that thou hast sent me.

And I have made known thy name to them, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou hast loved me, may be in them, and I in them.

* Brother, you are bringing me another Gospel. I reject it

148 posted on 12/31/2006 2:39:32 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: Rhadaghast; bornacatholic
There are countless millions who follow Christ yet hold no allegance to Rome. You do need to make up your mind if we are or are not saved. If saved, then we are part of God's Church.

The post-concilar RCC has twisted and tortured its previously proclaimed doctrinal statements to the point of absurdity. When the "there is no salvation outside the Church" and "one must be subject to the Pope for salvation" doctrines were put forth, there was no confusion. Unless you were a card-carying Catholic, you were damned. That has now been twisted and contorted. Now, the Church essentially states that anyone that is saved is saved through the Church. Not only Protestants, but even those rejecting Christ as Saviour, such as the Muslims, are potentially saved. About the only person that can't be saved is one who, knowing that the Church is necessary for salvation, leaves it none the less. Tell me, who, "knowing" that the Church is necessary for salvation would leave it? Everyone else is potentially "savable" (by the Church, of course). Apparently they get "credit" for lack of knowledge or understanding. Ignorance is bliss, apparently. This false ecumenism of the modern RCC is what bothers me most. It is dangerously universalist and leads to a thwarting of the Great Commission. Blessed Mother Teresa, who will almost certaily be a Saint one day, was an outright universalist and pantheist; apparently this is A-OK at the Vatican. Some frightening quotes from Blessed Teresa:

The following is from an interview with a Catholic nun, "Sister" Ann, who worked in Kathmandu, Nepal, with "Mother" Teresa's organization Missionaries of Charity. The interview was conducted 11/23/84 at the Pashupati Temple.

Q: Do you believe if they die believing in Shiva or in Ram [Hindu gods] they will go to heaven?

A: Yes, that is their faith. My own faith will lead me to God, ... So if they have believed in their god very strongly, if they have faith, surely they will be saved.

Q: Today it does not seem that the Catholic Church is trying to convert anymore. I know that John Paul II is saying now that those of other religions are saved. You do not believe they are lost anyway, right?

A: No, they are not lost. They are saved according to their faith, you know. If they believe whatever they believe, that is their salvation.


There you have it. Apparently, sincerity of belief and strength of faith, regardless of the object of belief and faith, is all that is needed for salvation. No doubt, Muslim suicide bombers have a strong faith; enough that they are willing to die for it. I suppose the Church recognizes that faith and steps in to provide for their salvation?
159 posted on 12/31/2006 8:46:23 AM PST by armydoc
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