Posted on 12/29/2006 4:47:11 AM PST by cowboyfan88
Edited on 12/29/2006 8:32:56 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
"I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity...That the Roman Church is more honored by God than by all others is not to be doubted..Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for seperating from the Church.
On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by seperating from the Church that we can make her better... There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to disolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body."
-Martin Luther January 6 1519 Letter to Pope Leo X
1st Cor 1: 30-31
“By His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, ‘Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord’”
Psalm 35:2-3
My soul makes its boast in the Lord; let the humble hear and be glad. Oh, magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt His name together!
If a believer finds himself frustrated by other believers who rejoice in their salvation, it is an indication that he is out of fellowship. Hebrews is an outstanding study regarding our eternal security and how God provides a system of check and balances in our conscience which are manifest when we backslide. One of our first disciplines when we backslide is lack of joy. Frustration is a symptom of thinking independent of Him, when we are confronted with reality that isn't consistent with our thinking independent of Him.
The Cosmic system is a system of good and evil which seeks to produce a counterfeit paradise independent of God. The cosmic system (COSMOS(Greek) = WORLD(English) defn = making order out of disorder) begins in our thinking. When we think independent of God (sin) we are tempted to place our hope in ourselves rather than in Him. On the contrary, when we initially place faith in Him, our first hope is realized when the Holy SPirit makes our faith efficiacious for salvation. There is a joy associated with our rest in Him.
The person who fails to realize their first hope in their salvation may be tempted to place their hope in a counterfeit system of thinking and or works to satisfy their hope. Such is a misplaced hope because only He is eternally trustworthy, worthy of faith. Nevertheless, to the backsliden believer, we might become frustrated that other believers are not sharing the same misery the backsliden believer might experience.
The starting place for this malady is the same for every problem a believer will ever face in eternal life, namely, first we place a simple faith in God on His grounds and let Him handle the situation. We might also natrally sacrifice the old man, the natural man, by simply returning to God and placing anything known or unknown which was independent of Him, back into His hands. By faith we simply rest and allow Him to do all the work.
A consequent of the new life is a freshness through faith in Him.
I rejoice in my salvation through faith in Him, in the hope He has made real, and in the new hope He provides by my remaining in fellowship with Him allowing Him to further sanctify my thinking so that I might be more prepared to be in the right time and place equipped with the armamnet to perform work per His will,..that I might be an agent in His plan, which might mean even being an invisible warrior not known to any other person in the performance of His will. It is all in His hands at all times. Thank you Lord!
Sanctifiction is a continuing process. God the Father creating the human spirit is a one time event. Our rebirth by His creation of our new life is a one time event. Our renewing of our mind in a continuing process becasue our body and soul has been scarred from a previous lifetime as the natural or old man.
I agree with you that we continue to 'work' our salvation by remaining in fellowship with Him, where God does all the work in us, LOGOS to human spirit, human spirit to Mind (soul, NOUS portion), Mind to Heart (GNOSIS to EPIGNOSIS from NOUS part of our soul to the KARDIA part of our soul), then EPIGNOSIS categorizzed in our heart ready for us to exercise our volition and choose to remain in fellowship with Him and abide by His will. When we abide by Him in our volition using the tools now placed in our heart by the Holy Spirit, we become doers of the Word and produce good works per His plan, thereby working our salvation.
Our eternal life, though was created by an act of God in an instant, just as in the future we will be caught up with Him in a twinkling of an eye.
I told you but a small part of it. I know the power of prayer and the mercy of GOD. Many other events have happened and GOD has been faithful to answer and be there. Christ is not RC, Baptist, Methodist, or any other Christian Church Sect. He is the Head of the Church and His followers from all walks all flocks who call on His name and believe are his Church, His Brothers, His Sister, and the membership.
Like I said it's a shame an argument as old as Christ time on earth of the jealousy of who are the chosen the greatest in Heaven still exist. A Church? What constitutes a church? Where two or more are gathered in His name there Christ is also.
I am familiar somewhat with the Roman Catholic Church. My cousin is a Priest and Vicar General in a major Southeastern U.S. City. About half my dads family is RC. We agree on much and not one second is wasted on trying to convert one to another's church. None of us see it as being an issue as we serve the same Lord and Savior. If the Roman Catholic Church is attacked by heretics who wish to say for example the the Pope is evil and RC's are going to hell I will take them on and call their hand. I'll send you the proof of such :>} I also know some Southern Baptist who think only SB's will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. It's sad. The churches should live and work together. But remember this even the chosen of Christ except at specific times mentioned in the Bible were not of one accord. No indeed they had major differences. They as well became entangled to the legalism's of their day.
I consider myself a fortunate person. Had I not listened to the callings given me? My life and many others lives involved in it would have not had the positive change that happened. I would most likely not be posting this. GOD works through all churches and all miniseries. I can give you many examples but one that comes to mind is a woman named Joni Erickson Tada. If you have never heard of her read the book Joni. It is a real eye opener. She is a very devout follower of the Lord and her ministry reaches many persons the churches simply can not. Many Flocks brother but only one Shepherd who guides us all.
GOD Bless You too.
The whole article--and indeed the whole protestant notion of 'assurance of salvation'--turns on a faulty understanding of Greek verb tenses. English has not equivalent of the aorist tense, which indicates an action begun in the past and ongoing in the present. The nearest one can get in English is the slightly awkard "are [or am] being saved", which only suggests continuing action in the present.
Being aware of when the Evangelists or Apostles (or Our Lord as recorded by them) are using the aorist tense can be important to correct Scriptural exegesis. There is, for instance, a passage in one of St. John's Epistles, where he speaks of Christ being made known in 'the water and the blood', and uses the aorist tense. This makes it clear that he is referring to the ongoing action of the Holy Mysteries of Baptism and the Eucharist, rather than the flow of water and blood from Our Lord's side on the occasion of His Saving and Ever-Memorable Death.
158 posted on 12/31/2006 9:11:20 AM MST by The_Reader_David
As in :
b'shem Yah'shua
Aorist Tense
The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence",
without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action.
This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense.
'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,'
a "one-point-in-time" action,
although it may actually take place over a period of time.
In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action
that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.
There is a vast difference between respecting those faithful Christians who have gone before us and asking them to intercede for us. I do not believe there is any evidence of Paul, John or Peter running to Mary to ask if she would intercede to Christ on their behalf. I find the Mariology doctrine an ever evolving one throughout history. You can also apply this to the veneration of the saints.
I do find it curious that the Orthodox don't hold by purgatory or indulgence yet the Catholics do. If the traditions of the church fathers were so well defined, there really shouldn't be any confusion, should there? Either the church fathers believed it or they didn't.
There is one example of people praying to dead saints and that is Saul when he tried to ask Samuel for help. It didn't go very well for him.
Jesus came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. His ministry was not to the gentiles. He came to his chosen people and they would not have him rule over them.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
We were without God until he sent Paul to the gentiles.
Eph 2:11
Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]
We were without God in the world. You have to actually read the bible for yourself to see these things in black and white. Only when Jesus saved Paul and sent him to us gentiles were we able to know God. Paul is the apostle of the gentiles. You can't just pick and choose verses not knowing who the writer was talking to or in what context.
Jesus was speaking to Jews under the law. Paul is the apostle we are to get our doctrine from not Peter. He was the apostle of the circumcision. Paul writes to us by inspiration from the risen Lord Jesus himself.
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
I don't make up any of my information. Its in my bible that I go by. Faith and faith alone is going to get you to heaven. Not Mary,a priest,a pope or a preacher will ever cleanse you from your sins. Only by Jesus' death,burial and resurrection will you be saved.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
My post comes from the bible. I spent most of my life taking someone else's word for what was in the bible and thinking that I knew what was it but when you actually read it for yourself you see a lot of things you always thought were in there that is not. Faith is not going by a denomination, it's about Jesus. If you don't have faith in what Jesus did on the cross, you are lost.
Yes, I would agree the doctrine of OSAS is fundamentally flawed. That is why I don't believe it. Instead I believe that God gives us grace and God continues to guide us until we are glorified. It isn't our work that drives us home but the work of Christ and it is His continuing work that sanctify us. We could technically lose our salvation but Christ promises that He won't let that happen. We persevere because of Christ, not because of our actions.
As far as Judas Iscariot, Christ choose those who He will. He chose Judas for a particular mission. God could have granted Judas faith. He didn't.
There are only scant writings on the subject that I'm familiar with. OTOH, there is direct biblical evidence that condemns the practice. Saul praying for Samuel to intercede is one example. Moses tried to intercede for Israel but God said no.
I am surprised you find that curious. Western theological thought here is influenced very heavily by +Augustine and in this area he is outside the consensus partrum. The utter depravity of mankind after the Fall is a Western notion which the East has never accepted. The idea of indulgences, a sort of get out of purgatory free card, has no place in Orthodoxy
It isn't the theology that I'm curious about. Rather it is the claim that Orthodox and Catholic represents the "true" church when, in fact, their theologies are substantially different. As you state, western theology is based upon Augustine's principles (although I would say that was true up until 600 AD). Orthodox theology is not. How can Catholics and Orthodox claim to be united when their theologies are significantly different?
Do you not ask your friends to pray for you? Do you take to task FReepers who post prayer requests? If not, then at least you are self-consistent.
'Jesus and me' spirituality without the rest of the Church, His Mystical Body, is not the approach the Holy Apostles, who wrote of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ, took. We are all one body, with one head, Christ. That I communicate with Him in prayer, and also ask the intercessions of His Mother, or of St. David of Wales, or of St. Basil the Great, is no stranger than that the muscles in my arm communicates with my brain by way of the nerves that bind it to my will and implement my kinesthetic sense, and with the bones to which it is connected by way of my ligaments. It must be rather lonely spending your time with Jesus only, without the great cloud of witnesses cheering you on. The Kingdom is a continuation of the Church, and I do expect a fair lot of folks to be there besides Jesus, and, if God is merciful to us sinners, me and you. It seems natural to talk to those the Church fully expects to be there.
I talk to Jesus, and the Father, and the Spirit, and to His friends, the saints. (Among whom I, as an Orthodox Christian, number neither Francis of Assisi, whom many Orthodox commentators, including some saints, hold to have been a severe victim of prelest, or spiritual delusion, nor Thomas More, whose actions in protest of Canterbury's annulment of Henry's marriage seem more political than proof of sanctity.)
Finally, Saul did not ask Samuel's intercession with God, but sought Samuel's advice through witchcraft--a sin which was punishable under the Old Covenant by death, and which is still (with murder, incest, male-male anal sodomy, and adultery) in the class of sins for which the canonical penance amon the Orthodox is life-long excommunication with communion of the Holy Mysteries permitted on the deathbed only.
No answer to the challenge? Can you find no Church Father to support your position? You asserted there were some.
"How can Catholics and Orthodox claim to be united when their theologies are significantly different?"
We don't claim to be united; we're not precisely because our theologies are significantly different and we won't be united until, as Kosta is fond of reminding us, we believe the exact same things so far as dogma goes. But we are particular churches within The Church. :)
Happy New Year, HD! I'm glad I've gotten to know you!
"Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord”
Boast anything you want about the Lord. But do not boast that you are "saved". When you boast that your sinning from that point forward will keep you out of hell, you are on the slippery slope to hell, indeed. Woe to him who does not ask the Lord for forgiveness, for he has separated himself from God in the next life, without doubt.
If you know in your heart that you are saved, and you ACT like it, that is enough.
Many a "saved" Christian has gone on to be a murderer or a serial adulterer. If they do not ask the Lord's forgiveness, they will be separated from the Lord in the next life, that is sure.
It is a Latin claim that they and the Orthodox both constitute the Church. It mystifies many of us Orthodox as well, as can be seen in the asymmetry between our harsher polemics: their hardliners call us "Greek [or Eastern] schismatics", ours call them "Latin heretics".
To my way of thinking the Latin faith is more-or-less a 'best Aristotelian approximation' to the Orthodox faith. They have permitted rationalism to override the experience of the Church in many areas, while trying to stick close to the concensus patrium. From their point of view, it is, thus, difficult to see the distinctions between their faith and ours, except in the matter of ecclesiology. From ours, we see a large gulf (though narrowing somewhat since the accession to the papacy of Benedict XVI).
We aren't boasting about sin, we are boasting of His provision of our salvation. Better to boast in Him than deny Him by remaining silent.
"we are boasting of His provision of our salvation."
Amen. Provision for our salvation.
Rom 5:1-3
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 8:38-39
1 Jn 5:11-12
2 Cor 5:21
Once saved with eternal life, you are eternally saved. There is nothing that will separate you from the love of God. Suggesting any sin will separate us denies the faith of Christ and is blasphemous.
The only time I take Christians to task is when I insert my unwanted opinions here. ;O)
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