To: HarleyD
"I find the Mariology doctrine an ever evolving one throughout history."
In the West, I think perhaps you may be right, but what looks like an evolving doctrine may in fact only be another example of Rome's fixation, perhaps justified, with defining everything.
"You can also apply this to the veneration of the saints."
I don't think so. The veneration even of relics of saints is very early 2nd century. At least in Orthodoxy, and I believe also in the West, the veneration of saints goes back virtually to the beginning and so far as I know has never changed in The Church.
"I do find it curious that the Orthodox don't hold by purgatory or indulgence yet the Catholics do. If the traditions of the church fathers were so well defined, there really shouldn't be any confusion, should there? Either the church fathers believed it or they didn't."
I am surprised you find that curious. Western theological thought here is influenced very heavily by +Augustine and in this area he is outside the consensus partrum. The utter depravity of mankind after the Fall is a Western notion which the East has never accepted. The idea of indulgences, a sort of get out of purgatory free card, has no place in Orthodoxy because we don't accept the idea of purgatory. We don't believe that we have to propitiate God because we have failed to become like Christ. God loves us and that love creates Paradise for those who have a similitude to Christ and a scourging torment to those who have refused to become like Christ. Paying some price to God for our failures just isn't part of the equation. You might also understand that as a general proposition, Orthodoxy believes in two Judgments, the Particular and the Final and the overwhelming majority of us won't know our eternal place until the Final Judgment. Once we are dead, there is nothing we can do to change where we will end up. While we are alive we can pray that God will show mercy on the souls of the departed, but that's about it.
Indulgences do have an ancient pedigree, however. In Alexandria, during the Roman persecutions, some Christians sought some sort of spiritual benefit from the sufferings and deaths of martyrs, whether in the here and now or the hereafter I don;t remember. I suspect that's where the idea of indulgences came from. Orthodoxy would argue that that was a misunderstanding of the nature of grace (created versus uncreated), but it did happen. In any event, the idea never caught on in the East.
To tell you the truth, HD, I find it surprising that Protestantism doesn't hold by indulgences and purgatory given the predominance of atonement theology among you guys.
167 posted on
12/31/2006 2:07:48 PM PST by
Kolokotronis
(Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
To: Kolokotronis
I don't think so. The veneration even of relics of saints is very early 2nd century. There are only scant writings on the subject that I'm familiar with. OTOH, there is direct biblical evidence that condemns the practice. Saul praying for Samuel to intercede is one example. Moses tried to intercede for Israel but God said no.
I am surprised you find that curious. Western theological thought here is influenced very heavily by +Augustine and in this area he is outside the consensus partrum. The utter depravity of mankind after the Fall is a Western notion which the East has never accepted. The idea of indulgences, a sort of get out of purgatory free card, has no place in Orthodoxy
It isn't the theology that I'm curious about. Rather it is the claim that Orthodox and Catholic represents the "true" church when, in fact, their theologies are substantially different. As you state, western theology is based upon Augustine's principles (although I would say that was true up until 600 AD). Orthodox theology is not. How can Catholics and Orthodox claim to be united when their theologies are significantly different?
171 posted on
12/31/2006 6:23:49 PM PST by
HarleyD
(Col 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body;)
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