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To: Mrs. Don-o

--I think that's a bit short-sighted, to say the least. Look, an angel comes to Isaiah (who was a pretty devout guy and, some say, the greatest of the Prophets)--- the angel comes and puts a burning coal in his mouth to purify his sinful lips. OK: an angel comes to Mary and tells her "scrub up?" No: greets her with this unprecedented homage: "the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women." Wow.

Yup. The coal thing with Isaiah is indeed impressive! Where else is it found in the Scriptures that an angel of the Lord purifies someone? I am not aware of any where else. Why did it happen? Because Isaiah said he had an impure mouth, and did not think himself worthy to be a prophet.

Did Martha get a coal to cleanse her? How about Joseph? Any other Prophets? Did the Apostles, who were to spread the inspired Gospel to the world? I cannot think of anyone else, besides Isaiah that got the coal across the smacker treatment, so that is a dead end.

--Example two: when a person gets a new name in Scripture, it's supposed to mean something big is afoot: God is revealing something about their part in the Divine Plan. Abram---> Abraham (father of many). Jacob---> Israel (wrestles with God). Simon ---> Peter (the Rock). And Mary is addressed by the angel, not by her name, but by a new name or title: Mary ---> Full of Grace.

So when in the Scripture does Mary get the new name used besides when the angel is talking to her? When she and Jesus' brothers are waiting outside trying to see Him? Nope, Mary is still called Mary. Peter is called Peter from that day on, with occasional references to Simon or Simon Peter. Indeed the changing of names by God is a sign of big changes, but again, no where else is she called by anything other than Mary...

Matthew 12:47Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!

Is that the reverence found in the Gospels for an immaculate being? No, Jesus gives her no reverence at all, and makes her wait outside and calls the people which He was teaching His brothers and mother. No, this still does not indicate an immaculate Mary.

IF she was she should have been given a special place in the Scriptures, no? Since she is not, can we only assume that the writers of the Gospel did not think so otherwise they would mention it?


87 posted on 12/21/2006 8:15:47 PM PST by Ottofire (O great God of highest heaven, Glorify Your Name through me)
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To: Ottofire
"Hail 'Full of Grace'"

Sounds like a new name to me.

93 posted on 12/22/2006 3:37:39 AM PST by RichardMoore
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To: Ottofire
Good morning!--

Blessed Mary had an incomparably more intimate relationship with God than Isaiah did: she was overshadowed by God's colossal generative power. Eternity broke into time, infinity burgeoned into space, and she impregnated with the Word. The Blood spilled for our salvation was formed of her blood only; and the Flesh crucified for the redemption of the world was formed in and from her maternal flesh, with no other human source or contact.

Now. Think this through with me. Isaiah needed to be cleansed with a hot coal to speak the word of God: "thus saith the Lord" --- because his mouth was unclean. Can you not see the contrast with Mary, who was to incarnate the Word of God in her flesh? If she had had a sin nature, and was not only to "carry" the Eternal God in her womb, but to give Him flesh out of her own substance, wouldn't that "substance" have to be purified as were Isaiah's lips? Because her substance doesn't just "touch" or even "represent" Christ, her substance becomes Christ.

Not all the prophets were cleansed with a burning coal, but Isaiah was; and you know what? His prophecies are often called the "Fifth Gospel" or the "Old Testament Gospel" because more than any other prophet, he speaks of the coming Messiah. He was given "pure lips" to speak of His coming in the flesh.

But Mary doesn't just "speak of" His coming: she actually gives her flesh to become His Flesh. And wouldn't she need an extraordinary purity, infinitely greater than Isaiah's?

--Example two: you wrote: "So when in the Scripture does Mary get the new name used besides when the angel is talking to her?"

Not everybody who is given new names or titles is referred to as such every time they are spoken of. Just as one example: after his name is changed, Simon Bar-Jonah is sometimes called Peter, or Cephas, and sometimes still called Simon or even both: Simon Peter. (I'd look up more if I had time.)

Mary, filled with the Holy Spirit and with the Lord of the Universe literally growing in her womb, prophesied "Behold, all generations will call me Blessed" --- and yet she's not called "Blessed" at any other time in the Bible! Except once: when a woman calls out to Jesus, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts that nursed You," Jesus says, "Yea, rather, blessed is whoever hears with word of God, and keeps it." So, was Mary's prediction a false prophecy?

Not at all. First of all, as long as there has been a Church, all generations DO call Mary "Blessed." Catholics call her the Blessed Virgin Mary (you can find it in Roman catacombs: "Beata Maria Semper Virgine") and Immaculate Mary and other such titles; Orthodox call her Panagia (All-Holy One), which refers to the same privilege as the angelic exclaimed, "Full of Grace!"

And Jesus' remark to the woman in Luke 11:27-28 ("Yea, rather, blessed are they that hear with Word of God, and keep it") indicates his Mother and many more. Because who more than anyone, "heard the Word of God" and "kept it"? While we cannot receive the Word in our wombs and keep Him there, we can receive the Word in our hearts in fidelity to Him, loving Him and doing His will.

Be it done unto me according to thy Word.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt amongst us.

And so for 2,000 years the Church --- led and instructed by the Holy Spirit, as Christ promised ----has greatly honored her who was so greatly honored by God.

96 posted on 12/22/2006 9:01:17 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Behold, the handmaid of the LORD: be it done to me according to Your Word. ")
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