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To: Ottofire
"...giving meaning to Scripture that is simply not there."

I think that's a bit short-sighted, to say the least. Look, an angel comes to Isaiah (who was a pretty devout guy and, some say, the greatest of the Prophets)--- the angel comes and puts a burning coal in his mouth to purify his sinful lips. OK: an angel comes to Mary and tells her "scrub up?" No: greets her with this unprecedented homage: "the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women." Wow.

Example two: when a person gets a new name in Scripture, it's supposed to mean something big is afoot: God is revealing something about their part in the Divine Plan. Abram---> Abraham (father of many). Jacob---> Israel (wrestles with God). Simon ---> Peter (the Rock). And Mary is addressed by the angel, not by her name, but by a new name or title: Mary ---> Full of Grace.

Now this is remarkable in itself, but even more remarkable is that ALL the ancient Churches unanimously agreed that this meant that Mary was saved ("my spirit rejoices in God my Savior") before she was even born, by being preserved from the blight which was otherwise inherited by all of the progeny of Adam and Eve. Her human nature was unblemished. This does not make her super-human. It makes her ....human. It makes her as clean as Eve was when Eve was first created, on her first lovely day in Eden.

Make sense? Well, 3/4 of all Christians--- Catholic Orthodox, and the ancient Churches of the East (Assyrians, Chaldeans, etc.) ---they ALL say it makes sense, and have for the last 2000 years.

So for you, an American who is 21 centuries removed from the Biblical scenes we're talking about, and who (I'm guessing) is not a native speaker of either Aramaic or Greek, to say to the the people who were part of the culture and who spoke the language that they don't understand their own Scriptures...

Whew.

Merry Christmas, again! To you and yours. Rejoice!

85 posted on 12/21/2006 7:34:01 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Let's keep CHRIST in Christmas. While we're at it, let's keep the MASS in Christmas! .;o))
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To: Mrs. Don-o

--I think that's a bit short-sighted, to say the least. Look, an angel comes to Isaiah (who was a pretty devout guy and, some say, the greatest of the Prophets)--- the angel comes and puts a burning coal in his mouth to purify his sinful lips. OK: an angel comes to Mary and tells her "scrub up?" No: greets her with this unprecedented homage: "the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women." Wow.

Yup. The coal thing with Isaiah is indeed impressive! Where else is it found in the Scriptures that an angel of the Lord purifies someone? I am not aware of any where else. Why did it happen? Because Isaiah said he had an impure mouth, and did not think himself worthy to be a prophet.

Did Martha get a coal to cleanse her? How about Joseph? Any other Prophets? Did the Apostles, who were to spread the inspired Gospel to the world? I cannot think of anyone else, besides Isaiah that got the coal across the smacker treatment, so that is a dead end.

--Example two: when a person gets a new name in Scripture, it's supposed to mean something big is afoot: God is revealing something about their part in the Divine Plan. Abram---> Abraham (father of many). Jacob---> Israel (wrestles with God). Simon ---> Peter (the Rock). And Mary is addressed by the angel, not by her name, but by a new name or title: Mary ---> Full of Grace.

So when in the Scripture does Mary get the new name used besides when the angel is talking to her? When she and Jesus' brothers are waiting outside trying to see Him? Nope, Mary is still called Mary. Peter is called Peter from that day on, with occasional references to Simon or Simon Peter. Indeed the changing of names by God is a sign of big changes, but again, no where else is she called by anything other than Mary...

Matthew 12:47Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!

Is that the reverence found in the Gospels for an immaculate being? No, Jesus gives her no reverence at all, and makes her wait outside and calls the people which He was teaching His brothers and mother. No, this still does not indicate an immaculate Mary.

IF she was she should have been given a special place in the Scriptures, no? Since she is not, can we only assume that the writers of the Gospel did not think so otherwise they would mention it?


87 posted on 12/21/2006 8:15:47 PM PST by Ottofire (O great God of highest heaven, Glorify Your Name through me)
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