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To: vladimir998; Diego1618
Babylon was still a term used to refer to ancient, pagan Rome.

Who referred to Rome as Babylon in Peter's day?

And then tell us why Paul was not aware of this term. Perhaps then he would have called his Epistle to the Romans: the Epistle to the Babylonians.

Peter wrote and spoke in straight forward terms and was the apostle to the circumcision [the Jews]. The Jews had been kicked out of Rome in 49 AD by order of Claudius, so even Peter who was not even a Roman citizen would not be allowed to enter Rome much less remain there for any period of time.

We went through this on another thread in which we asked for any and all evidence of Peter's episcopacy in Rome per the legend of his 25 year reign with upside down crucifixion under Nero --- and there is none. Not from Scripture, Tacitus, Josephus, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Ignatius, or any other early ante-Nicene father.

Perhaps you can do better and find what they could not. Post the quotes from those early sources, if you can find any.

174 posted on 12/17/2006 4:37:58 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

You wrote:

"Who referred to Rome as Babylon in Peter's day?"

Peter did.

"And then tell us why Paul was not aware of this term."

Present your evidence that he was not aware of this term. Choosing not to use it is not the same thing as being unaware of it.

"Perhaps then he would have called his Epistle to the Romans: the Epistle to the Babylonians."

Your first mistake is assuming he named his letter. Do you name letters you right? Those names are appended later, by readers and copyists. Please think.

"Peter wrote and spoke in straight forward terms and was the apostle to the circumcision [the Jews]."

Yes, Peter generally wrote in a straightforward way. That doesn't mean he wanted everything understood in an obvious and clear way, however. Nor did he preach only to Jews as I already posted.

"The Jews had been kicked out of Rome in 49 AD by order of Claudius, so even Peter who was not even a Roman citizen would not be allowed to enter Rome much less remain there for any period of time."

Incorrect. Whether Jews were ousted by order of the emperor from Rome would not necessarily effect Peter. He may not have had a choice in being in Rome. He may have been a prisoner. Or he may have traveled incognito.

"We went through this on another thread in which we asked for any and all evidence of Peter's episcopacy in Rome per the legend of his 25 year reign with upside down crucifixion under Nero --- and there is none."

Sure there is. There is the testimony of the fathers. That is an incomplete record, but the consensus that Peter was in Rome and was martyred under Nero is there.

"Not from Scripture, Tacitus, Josephus, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Ignatius, or any other early ante-Nicene father."

Scripture says Peter was to be crucified -- or didn't you know that? Tacitus says almost nothing about Christ. Does that mean He didn't exist? Josephus may not have known or cared. Justin Martyr was physically far removed from Rome. Irenaeus may simply have had no reason to mention all that you wish he did. He did mention Peter as bishop of Rome, however. You know that right?

"Perhaps you can do better and find what they could not. Post the quotes from those early sources, if you can find any."

Find any quotes about what exactly? Was Peter in Rome? Yes, there are plenty of quotes. Was he in Rome as a bishop? Yes, plenty of evidence there too. Was he martyred? Yep, evidence there too.

IGNATIUS
"Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict" (Epistle to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110]).

DIONYSIUS
"You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time" (Epistle to Pope Soter of Rome [A.D. 166], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8).

IRENAEUS
"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3:1:1 [A.D. 189]).

IRENAEUS
"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the epistle to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]" (ibid., 3:3:3).

IRENAEUS
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall . . . [point] out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
"The circumstances which occasioned . . . [the writing] of Mark were these: When Peter preached the Word publicly at Rome and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed" (Sketches [A.D. 190], in a fragment from Eusebius, History of the Church, 6:14:1).

GAIUS
"It is recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself and Peter, likewise, was crucified, during the reign [of the Emperor Nero]. The account is confirmed by the names of Peter and Paul over the cemeteries there, which remain to the present time. And it is confirmed also by a stalwart man of the Church, Gaius by name, who lived in the time of Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome" (Disputation with Proclus [A.D. 198] in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:5).

TERTULLIAN
"But if you are near Italy, you have Rome, where authority is at hand for us too. What a happy church that is, on which the apostles poured out their whole doctrine with their blood, where Peter had a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John [the Baptist, by being beheaded]" (De Prescriptione 36 [A.D. 200]).

TERTULLIAN
"[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]).

THE LITTLE LABYRINTH
"Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter" (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 5:28:3).

POPE ANTERUS
"Peter, our holy master and the prince of the apostles, was translated for the sake of the common good from Antioch to Rome, in order that he might be in a position there of doing more service" (Letter on the Translation of Bishops [A.D. 235]).

POEM AGAINST THE MARCIONITES
"In this chair in which he himself had sat, Peter in mighty Rome commanded Linus, the first elected, to sit down. After him, Cletus too accepted the flock of the fold. . . ." (Poem Against the Marcionites 276–284 [A.D. 267]).


EUSEBIUS
"[In the second] year of the two hundredth and fifth Olympiad [A.D. 42]: The apostle Peter, after he has established the church in Antioch, is sent to Rome, where he remains as a bishop of that city, preaching the gospel for twenty-five years" (The Chronicle [A.D. 303]).

PETER OF ALEXANDRIA
"Peter, the first chosen of the apostles, having been apprehended often and thrown into prison and treated with ignominy, at last was crucified in Rome" (Penance, canon 9 [A.D. 306]).


LACTANTIUS
"When Nero was already reigning, Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked . . . he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God. When this fact was reported to Nero . . . he sprang to the task of tearing down the heavenly temple and of destroying righteousness. It was he that first persecuted the servants of God. Peter he fixed to a cross, and Paul he slew" (The Deaths of the Persecutors 2:5 [A.D. 316]).

All of the above were ante-Nicene writers.


181 posted on 12/17/2006 7:30:10 AM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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