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Should Catholic priests have the right to marry?
beliefnet.com/blogs/crunchycon ^ | Wednesday, December 06, 2006 | Rod Dreher

Posted on 12/16/2006 1:07:45 PM PST by Zemo

Wednesday, December 06, 2006

Should Catholic priests have the right to marry?

A Protestant friend who saw the video of Father Plushy giving his Barney blessing -- and truly, I don't know what is more irritating, the priest or the full house of ninnies who sat there singing and clapping -- writes this morning to say:

That video you just posted is the best single argument I have ever seen for ending the celibacy of the priesthood.

Well, maybe. One is entitled to wonder how seriously Father Plushy takes his vow of celibacy, or anything about the dignity and responsibilities of the priesthood. Still, even if priests were allowed to marry, why would that necessarily prevent future Father Plushies from entering the priesthood? On paper, it wouldn't, but if it made the priesthood open to men who would consider it if they could also fulfill vocations as husbands and fathers, it seems to me that you'd stand a greater chance of creating a more healthy manly culture within the ranks of clergy.

Priestly celibacy is not a dogmatic teaching, but rather a discipline of the Catholic Church. The Pope could not overturn the Church's teaching on (say) abortion, but he could theoretically change the celibacy discipline with a stroke of his pen. But should he?

Mandatory clerical celibacy is a discipline that was imposed on Catholic clergy in the Middle Ages. In the Orthodox churches, priests are still permitted to marry, as was the ancient practice. There are limitations on this -- you have to marry before your ordination, and the bishops are drawn from the monastic ranks, which means they must be celibates. But parish priests can and do have families. I've been going to an Orthodox church for a year or so now, though only in full communion for a few months, and I see that the two priests at my parish -- both of whom are married, and have children -- are really wonderful. I find it hard to understand why the Catholic Church insists on clerical celibacy.

Well, let me take that back: for many conservative Catholics, the celibacy requirement is seen as a valuable sign of contradiction to our oversexed age. That resonates with me. I think, though, that it's also the case that many orthodox Catholics resist thinking about ending the celibacy discipline because it's something that progressive Catholics have been pushing for, and to do so would appear to be a major concession to their agenda. But I tell you, after the Scandal revealed how the Catholic priesthood has become heavily gay, and at least some of the gays in the priesthood in positions of power were shown to be systematically using their power to discourage straight men considered a threat to them from continuing in the priesthood -- the "Goodbye, Good Men" thesis, and believe me, I have heard directly from seminarians and priests in the trenches how this works -- more than a few orthodox Catholics (including at least one deeply conservative priest) have said to me that it's time to consider ending mandatory celibacy. Before I even considered becoming Orthodox, I had spoken to Catholic friends about my own doubts on the wisdom of maintaining an exclusively celibate clergy (the distinction being that there will always be men and women called formally to the celibate state, and they must be honored and provided for, as they always have been in the Christian church.)

I think they're right. I mean, look, by year's end we will have seen ordained to the Catholic priesthood of two former Episcopal priests, Al Kimel and Dwight Longenecker, who converted to Catholicism. I have every expectation that they'll be wonderful, faithful, orthodox Catholic priests. And they are also married men. If they are to be welcomed and affirmed as Catholic priests, why not others? To be sure, these men are not campaigning for the end of the celibacy discipline, and as the Longenecker article I linked to in this sentence brings out, a married clergy poses special problems of its own.

Still, I think it's worth talking about, especially because to open up the Catholic priesthood to married men requires no change in the Church's doctrinal teaching. Would bringing married men into the priesthood cause a culture change within the priesthood that would discourage the Father Plushies from celebrating their diversity? I don't know. But I'd sure like to hear what orthodox Catholics and others have to say about it.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: catholicbashing; clergy; narriage; nomoreplease; zot
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To: Mrs. Don-o; ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY
From the article:

I had spoken to Catholic friends about my own doubts on the wisdom of maintaining an exclusively celibate clergy (the distinction being that there will always be men and women called formally to the celibate state, and they must be honored and provided for, as they always have been in the Christian church.)

41 posted on 12/16/2006 2:25:18 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: Zemo

and every other Borgia.


42 posted on 12/16/2006 2:25:51 PM PST by carolinalivin
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To: Zemo
If Roman Catholic priests are not allowed to marry,it will come to pass (within the lifetimes of most folks on FR) that there won't be any more candidates for the priesthood that we would want to see become priests.

Also,I can't understand why Episcopal priests who convert to Catholicism and become Catholic priests are allowed to serve as priests and remain married yet no other priests are.

43 posted on 12/16/2006 2:28:36 PM PST by Gay State Conservative ("The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism."-Karl Marx)
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To: Zemo

Yes. Yes> Yes.


44 posted on 12/16/2006 2:30:23 PM PST by Calusa ("Actually, we bogeyed the 17th hole and picked up on the 18th."L. Graham/Novak)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

"Celibacy causes homosexuality?"

Come off it! I didn't say that. However celibacy is an unnatural state, and certainly not desired by the Almighty who made us male and female for a reason. In an unnatural state, men's passions can easily turn perverted.


45 posted on 12/16/2006 2:31:56 PM PST by ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY ( ISLAMA DELENDA EST!)
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To: Gay State Conservative

Well, if the Pope wants a re-union of east and west the Orthodox practice of allowing married clergy and the acceptance of divorce in some cases have to be addressed. I don't think the Orthodox will change on these issues so does that mean the Latins will change?


46 posted on 12/16/2006 2:33:27 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: Zemo
The turn would be to return to the original Latin practice which once had married clergy and this was approved via ecumenical council ruling - i.e. returning to Latin married clergy would be a course correction back to its original sailing plan.

Only partially true. Married men could indeed be ordained but they were required to adopt the discipline of total continence within said marriage. The spouse was required to agree to this or the candidate could not be ordained. The two were also required to live separately. Incidentally, we know for certain that only one Apostle, Peter, was at one time married. Based on what is written in Luke 18 and Matthew 19, it is readily apparent that only the Latin Rite is sailing on the correct course.

47 posted on 12/16/2006 2:37:08 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: A.A. Cunningham
To marry and remain celibate would be a violation of the idea of marriage. Why would the Lord want a man to marry a woman and then set her aside violating the reason for marriage - to be fruitful and multiply?

Some examples of Popes who came from married clergy:

Pope Agapetus I (died 22 April 536) reigned as pope from 535 to 536. Date of birth uncertain; he was the son of Gordianus, a Roman priest who had been slain during the riots in the days of Pope Symmachus.

Pope St. Silverius (Reigned 536-37). Dates of birth and death unknown. He was the son of Pope Hormisdas who had been married before becoming one of the higher clergy. Silverius entered the service of the Church and was subdeacon at Rome when Pope Agapetus died at Constantinople, 22 April, 536.

48 posted on 12/16/2006 2:46:32 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: A.A. Cunningham; Zemo
"Drehers' comments regarding the Catholic Church can and should be aired out and placed on the lawn."

Good place for them! As I remember this guy's story, he was some sort of Protestant, then Roman Catholic and now he's with us. I suspect that Protestant background compels him somehow to spout off about the Roman Church now like he did about the Protestants earlier. Dreher no more understands Orthodoxy than my good Irish Wheaten Terrier. Look at this remark:

"I've been going to an Orthodox church for a year or so now, though only in full communion for a few months,...."

He is now in "full communion" with Orthodoxy?????????!!!!!!!!!! What's that supposed to mean; the Church of Rod or Bishop Rod has now come into Orthodoxy?

Zemo, here's a tip, 'cause you're new here. Posting polemical stuff by apostates is guaranteed to get a less than pleasant reaction from either the Orthodox or the Romans, depending on whose ox is getting gored. The Romans have been sensitive to this for many months now, thankfully, and we should do the same for them.
49 posted on 12/16/2006 2:47:29 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Zemo
"Should not a universal church have universal rules?"

The Catholic Church actually consists of a number of local churches, which have historically different cultures, emphases and rites.

The Western Church has erred in the past by giving short shrift to the Eastern Churches which are in communion with us. That's being corrected, I think.

Moral rules and basic doctrines are, of course, all the same and always will be. But there's no binding reason why all customary and disciplinary rules have to universal, no.

50 posted on 12/16/2006 2:47:32 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Point of clarfication.)
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To: ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY

Alternatively, ordained homosexual priests might keep their vows of celibacy and abstain from incongruent behaviors. Also, aren't Anglicans allowed to marry and don't they have a homosexual bishop. So, much for your disparaging point.


51 posted on 12/16/2006 2:48:07 PM PST by Calusa ("Actually, we bogeyed the 17th hole and picked up on the 18th."L. Graham/Novak)
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To: Gay State Conservative
Also,I can't understand why Episcopal priests who convert to Catholicism and become Catholic priests are allowed to serve as priests and remain married yet no other priests are.

Not every Episcopal or Lutheran clergy who converts to Roman Catholicism is ordained. Many seek ordination and few of those are selected; less than 1,000 worldwide since Pope John Paul IIs 1980 Pastoral Provision, which stated in part:

"the Holy See has specified that this exception to the rule of celibacy is granted in favor of these individual persons, and should not be understood as implying any change in the Church's conviction of the value of priestly celibacy, which will remain the rule for future candidates for the priesthood from this group."

You probably also don't realize that prior to ordination, said converts must agree to adopt the discipline of celibacy for the remainder of their lives should their spouse precede them in death.

52 posted on 12/16/2006 2:48:10 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY

St. Paul has a different view.


53 posted on 12/16/2006 2:49:18 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Point of clarfication.)
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To: Kolokotronis; A.A. Cunningham
"I've been going to an Orthodox church for a year or so now, though only in full communion for a few months,...." He is now in "full communion" with Orthodoxy?????????!!!!!!!!!! What's that supposed to mean; the Church of Rod or Bishop Rod has now come into Orthodoxy?

I take it to mean he was studying to become Orthodox and finally was Christmated and allowed to take communion.

Your interpretation was way off base, IMHO.

54 posted on 12/16/2006 2:51:11 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: A.A. Cunningham; Gay State Conservative
You probably also don't realize that prior to ordination, said converts must agree to adopt the discipline of celibacy for the remainder of their lives should their spouse precede them in death.

That is the Orthodox practice for all married clergy as well.

55 posted on 12/16/2006 2:52:40 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY
and certainly not desired by the Almighty

"For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it." Matthew 19:12

Marriage sure doesn't seem to be a panacea for Michael Jackson or these protestants, et al, does it?

56 posted on 12/16/2006 2:53:00 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Zemo

" I take it to mean he was studying to become Orthodox and finally was Christmated and allowed to take communion."

I suspect that's exactly what he meant. Its not what he said. What he said is a distortion of the meaning of his conversion.

Your interpretation was way off base, IMHO.

Do you think that individual lay people come "into communion" with Orthodoxy? Churches do, even bishops do, individual laymen don't.


57 posted on 12/16/2006 2:56:34 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Calusa; ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY

Not to mention the prominent MARRIED evangelical Protestants who have been forced to relinquish their posts because they are homosexuals.

I find it quite ironic that conservatives who are aware of the media's bias are so gullible when faced with that same bias when it is directed against Catholicism. Sure, there have been some homosexual priests who have committed horrific crimes, but they are a miniscule portion of the priesthood.


58 posted on 12/16/2006 2:56:40 PM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: Kolokotronis
Do you think that individual lay people come "into communion" with Orthodoxy? Churches do, even bishops do, individual laymen don't.

I don't see where you get that meaning. My interpretation of communion is that he was allowed to take the body and blood of Christ recently.

59 posted on 12/16/2006 3:00:36 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: A.A. Cunningham; ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY

You are both missing the point. Celibacy is honored in Christianity but so is marriage. You can have both celibate and married clergy.


60 posted on 12/16/2006 3:04:35 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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