Posted on 12/08/2006 11:47:00 AM PST by 4lifeandliberty
AJNTSA
Technically, a lot of the physical parts of Christmas are connected to Saturnalia and paganism. Christmas trees, yule logs (misletoe was sort of a peace thing--hence the kissing, originally a sort of diplomatic European kiss), Santa Claus (not Saint Nick), etc.
On the other hand, Christmas has been Christianized. Saint Nick merging with Wodin in Santa Claus, Christmas songs, and the point of the day, the birth of God on Earth.
Could be interesting to see other freepers' opinions....
This pagan origin stuff is meant to say: "It is OK to remove Christmas from public practice, because you Christians don't know Christmas is Pagan anyway. Please thank us for telling you what is in your heart and for saving you from the pagan Christmas tree"
It isn't as though you're forced to read these threads.
Actually I think it's mostly turnabout. There's a vocal chunk of Christianity that likes to trumpet the pagan origins of Halloween as good reasons not to celebrate that. And two months later there are some folks that enjoy Halloween that like to trumpet the pagan relationship to Christmas to thumb their nose at the anti-Halloween crowd.
Both.
NEXT!
Personally, anti-Halloween. In contrast to Christmas, Halloween has definitely not lost its paganism.
Byzantine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox still celebrate St. Nicholas' feast day on Dec. 6 with all the Old World pageantry.
Santa Claus and St. Nicholas are two different things.
Most Christians celebrate Christmas as a special holiday of giving to others with perhaps only slight recognition of the fact it is the supposed birthday of Jesus. Probably, that birthday was later during the year ( because it was reported there were shepherds in the fields with their flocks at about that time ). The actual birthday doesn't matter, because neither Jesus or his disciples ever suggested remembering his birthday. Jesus seemed to be a person who preached the spirit of laws rather than rote celebration, with the possible exception of the last supper; it is assumed by many Christians that the command to his disciples to participate in that ceremony extended to all later followers. I don't think there will be any divine grading points one way or the other regards observance of a holiday such as Christmas.
Before someone accuses me of being a scrooge on the point, I am a Christian and do like Christmas and have no problems with participation therein.
Depends on how you want to look at it. As far as the acoutrement of the holidays are concerned both are seriously steeped in paganism, almost all of the generally accepted decorative symbols of both holidays come straight from the non-Christian side. As for the spirit of the holidays that largely depends on the individual celebrant, living down here in the Southwest with a large Mexican Catholic population I see a lot of the Christian side of the celebration of the evening before All Saints Day. For most Americans Halloween is just an excuse to where funny clothes and do silly thing, neither Christian nor pagan. Just as for many Americans Christmas is just an excuse to buy presents for loved ones, drink eggnog, and eat their favorite holiday cookie (I'm fond of Pfeffernusse myself); again neither Christian nor pagan.
Chapter 34. Place of Christ's birth foretold.
And hear what part of earth He was to be born in, as another prophet, Micah, foretold. He spoke thus: "And thou, Bethlehem, the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah; for out of thee shall come forth a Governor, who shall feed My people." Micah 5:2 Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judæa.
Against Marcion: Tertullian
And yet how could He have been admitted into the synagogue—one so abruptly appearing, so unknown; one, of whom no one had as yet been apprised of His tribe, His nation, His family, and lastly, His enrolment in the census of Augustus—that most faithful witness of the Lord's nativity, kept in the archives of Rome
The Liturgical Year: Dom Gueranger
And firstly, with regard to our Saviour's Birth on Dec. 25, we have St. John Chrysostom telling us in his homliy for this Feast, that the Western Churches had, from the very commencement of Christianity, kept it on this day. He is not satisfied with merely mentioning this tradition; he undertakes to show it is very well founded, inasmuch as the Church of Rome had every means of knowing the true day of our Saviour's Birth, since the acts of the enrollment, taken in Judea by command of Augustus, were kept in the public archives of Rome.The Holy Doctor adduces a second arguement, which he founds upon the Gospel of St. Luke, and he reasons thus: we know from the sacred Scriptures that it must have been in the fast of the sevent month (Lev 23.the 7th month, Tsiri, corresponded to out Sept, beginning of October) that the Priest Zachary had the vision in the Temple; after which Elizabeth, his wife, conceived St. John the Baptist; hence it follows that that the Blessed Virgin Mary having, as the Evangelist St Luke relates, received the Angel Gabriel's visit, and conceived the Saviour of the world in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, that is to say March, the Birth of Jesus must have taken palce in the month of December.
* Now, it is a historicl fact that the Acts of the Enrollment were kept in the Public Liberry in Rome. Converts regularly were shown them as part of their catechesis...So, itt seems an odd way to spend Advent by undermining the date of Jesus Birth.
Just to be fair, I will post from a protestant website that references what I have just referenced plus a few other things.
As to the Pagans - Fortitute, Temperance, Pruduence, and Justice had already been estanlsihed as Cardinal Virtues by them. The Incarnation set in motion what resulted in the the perfection/completion of ALL the Cardinal Virtues - Faith, Hope, Love.
Given what they had, the pagans didnt do too badly...Even St. Paul cited the works of the pagan poets in the New Testament :)
Agree with your last sentence. There are also predominantly non-Christian countries such as Japan which have a decidedly atheistic "Christmas."
The early Christian traditions about St. Nicholas are the modern traditions in my Church.
A'hem.
Some of us celebrate St Nicholas feast day on the 19th.
(Old Calendar)
It's still Dec. 6th, but on the Julian reckoning.
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