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hehe This thread has become quite the humorous parody of the "no graven images" Bible thump that dominated earlier.

I must say though, that the underlying point still seems to be missed, and it's sad: To believe that those in Heaven are not as alive as we are now, and can hear us just as well as you or I can hear another on earth is a sad belief in my opinion. I find it comforting to believe that I can pray to an actual SAINT, and he/she will HEAR me, and not only that, but pray FOR me to God.

I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to embrace such a belief. It really helps those days when you feel you just don't have a friend in the world. And yes, God is our Friend. But it's nice to have a connection, a communion, with actual people who are NOT a supreme being, who have lived the life we have before, and have persevered.

If that's idolotry, I am guilty as charged.

To believe that those in Heaven are not as alive as we are now, and can hear us just as well as you or I can hear another on earth is a sad belief in my opinion.

Re: post #431...By definition, folks in heaven would be alive, but you make several assumptions.

(a) That folks ("saints") people pray to are necessarily in heaven. Likely? Probably. Definitely? No. Jesus said "wide is the road that leads to destruction" and "narrow is the way that leads to life." With that and Matthew 25, where half of the virgins expecting to enter with Jesus are denied, we don't hard numbers here, but we have indicators that the bulk of humanity is NOT headed to heaven; and that even half of the expectant "religious" folk may not make it.

(b) Re: Other-dimension saints may indeed be able to hear us, but that's mere conjecture. It's a folktale. It might be true; it might not be. We have no Scriptural guidance.

(c) You assume that other-dimension saints have a form of omniscience--a character attribute that belongs to God alone. Are you telling me that if a million earthly saints simultaneously prayed to this saint, he could hear all of them? Bible teachers commonly point out that we often make this same mistake about the devil, ascribing to him omniscience when he has none.

BibChr made this point in post #286, which I did not see anyone respond to. I had to read it a few times to comprehend his point, which is a good one: Let me know when thousands of fellow-Christians close their eyes and beam out their prayer requests to me simultaneously, thus tacitly attributing omniscience to me. I'll beam back that they're all idolaters."

I find it comforting to believe that I can pray to an actual SAINT, and he/she will HEAR me, and not only that, but pray FOR me to God. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to embrace such a belief.

May I supply a few reasons as to "why anyone wouldn't want to embrace such a belief?"

(1) Please explain to me the exact difference between a John Edwards speaking to a deceased spirit in his "Crossing Over" program and a Christian speaking to a deceased saint?

(2) I've been taught, and scriptural examples apply, that prayer--although often perceived by us as a one-way form of communication--is two ways. God answers prayer. Not always right away. Not usually in the way we expect. Sometimes with a still, small voice. But prayer can be a two-way street. So, tell me, what is your position when these saints "talk back" to you in prayer after you have prayed to them? And since it's possible that when a John Edwards or a medium or psychic is talking to a "dead spirit" is in reality being fooled by a demon masquerading as that "dead spirit," how does a discerning person distinguish the two?

If it's no big deal in God's eyes for folks to talk to deceased spirits, do you want to explain why OT writers were so down on necromancy? (see 2 Kings 21:6; Dt. 18:10-12; Lev. 20:6,7)

(3) Christians are called to be fully dependent upon God, and to fully glorify him alone. What is the fruit we offer before the world of us doing that?

It really helps those days when you feel you just don't have a friend in the world. And yes, God is our Friend. But it's nice to have a connection, a communion, with actual people who are NOT a supreme being, who have lived the life we have before, and have persevered. If that's idolotry, I am guilty as charged.

If you want a model of both perseverence and perfect intercession, Jesus is Him: "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered..." (Hebrews 5:7-8)

Listen, if we want an intercessor whose soul knows how to pass on "loud cries and tears" and will be "heard"--Jesus is your go-to "Guy." If we want one who persevered by learning obedience from what he suffered--one who asked that the cup be taken from Him--Jesus is our God-man of understanding.