Posted on 12/05/2006 1:36:19 PM PST by stfassisi
Not at all. The metaphor is only true in a manner of speaking, that is, according to a certain sense of the word. But transubtantiation is absolutely true, just as you are the very same person you were 15 years ago, even if every atom of your body has been replaced by another atom. How can you be the same person through time, even with replacement of parts? Because your *substance* stays the same.
-A8
Martin Luther had lost his faith in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Luther professed to believe in transubstantiation. Well how can you have transubstantiation if you dont have a Real Presence which is made possible by the words of Consecration by validly ordained priests? Although Martin Luther, even though he might use the word transubstantiation, he coined the word consubstantiation. In other words, even where he would retain the word transubstantiation, he really meant and spent thousands of words explaining what he meant by consubstantiation. Transubstantiation means, that what had been bread and wine in substance, are changed into the Whole Jesus Christ. So what becomes present on the altar is no longer, no longer the substance of bread and wine, thats gone. By replacing the substance of bread and wine is both the substance of Christs Living Body and Blood and all the physical properties of Christs living humanity. For Luther has the word consubstantiation. Con being the equivalent of quo in Latin, the substance of bread and wine remain.
Dear Friend,Here is the difference, and what the apostles and ALL the early church Fathers believed
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm
Its not a matter of a win-able argument,Dear Friend. It,s a matter of Faith,because if you believe that Jesus can turn bread and wine into HIS body and blood-like He clearly tells us -then you will have the kind of faith that can change hearts and move mountains.
This is wonderful,Dear friend! You can also spend time in Eucharist Adoration.All are welcome in the Catholic Church or Chapel for exposition of the Blessed Sacrament(ALL Denominations can attend) Our Lord said.... "Could you not spent one hour with me" Adoration will be the some of the best time you will ever spend with HIM.
I take things literally, too, and cannibalism just doesn't suit me.
Early Christians on the Holy Eucharist
Holy Father stresses Need of Devotion to Holy Eucharist outside of Mass: Pope Paul VI
The Fourth Cup: The Sacrament of the Eucharist [Holy Thursday] [Passover]
The Holy Face of Jesus Christ as appeared on the Holy Eucharist
The Reverence due to the Holy Eucharist
New rules on the Holy Eucharist on Holy Thursday
Devotion to the Holy Eucharist Advances Devotion to Jesus' Person
Vatican: Matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist (April 23, 2004)
The Discipline of the Eucharist Holy See Releases Redemptionis Sacramentum...
THE HOLY EUCHARIST: NOURISHMENT TO FINISH OUR COURSE
The Disposition of Priests [Valid Mass, Valid Holy Eucharist?]
Grace of the Eucharist is secret to holy priests, says Pope
Area worshipers march to celebrate Holy Eucharist
Custody of Holy Land Concludes Year of Eucharist - In Capernaum, Site of a Key Discourse
Gift Of Life, Gift Eternal: The Most Holy Eucharist and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
Though all good to Christians, without whom the United States could not have been founded.
I don't take offense to you questioning my faith, seemingly....are you questioning my faith?
NO,I,m not questioning your faith,Dear brother.
I feel it,s important for people to understand Jesus gift of the Blessed Sacrament.
There is a mountain of evidence,I mean a mountain to support that the Eucharist is "really" Jesus.
I wish you a nice day,
TO All
I,m off on business-catch up later
He's God. He can make it change on whatever level He wants. He can even change the quarks of the subatomic particles that make up the atoms. Such a change does NOT have to reflect itself at the mere level of chemistry.
The Lutherans--not knowing anything about atoms and molecules, can perhaps be "somewhat" excused for thinking the change had to be on a non-physical/non-real level. Today, we know better.
That is a very convenient explanation, but too bad it isn't supported by Scripture. Either the fruit of the vine and the bread are literally His blood and flesh, or they are symbols.
S,
As a seminary graduate, I'm acquainted with both the passages and arguments of various positions.
Even if you were to take Jesus words literally, there is no compelling reason to assume that "doing this in memory of Me" always leads to a real transformation of the elements.
You may believe differently, as is your right. I don't find the arguments compelling or persuasive in the least.
You may argue that it takes more faith to believe a transformation occurs in a mystical realm that cannot be seen or tested. It is your right.
That isn't the basis I see the Bible teaching the meaning of faith.
Thanks for your post.
best,
ampu
Too bad 'sola scriptura' isn't supported by Scripture.
-A8
Are you agreeing that the idea of transubstantiation isn't supported by Scripture?
-A8
I was not referring to the term, but the idea or teaching of it. Once again, either the fruit of the vine the bread are literally Christ's blood and flesh, or they are symbols. There is no direct teaching, or implication, that a change in substance but not in the actual physical characteristics of the elements takes place.
We believe that the wine and bread literally (i.e. actually, truly, in fact) become Christ's blood and body.
There is no direct teaching, or implication, that a change in substance but not in the actual physical characteristics of the elements takes place.
That's not true. The teaching is present materially, though not formally. You may not be able to discern that teaching without the help of the Magisterium.
-A8
Corpus Christi (by St. Peter Julian Eymard)
Beginning Catholic: The Eucharist: In the Presence of the Lord Himself [Ecumenical]
Christ the Miracle Worker in the Eucharist(Catholic Caucus)
St. Cyril of Jerusalem: Catechetical Lectures - Lecture XXII on the Body and blood of Christ
TransubstantiationHard to Believe? [open]
On Daily Bread [OPEN]
The Meal of Melchizedek (what is meant by Christs words, "This is my body; this is my blood")
The Eucharist: The Lord's Supper
Pope Benedict--Jesus' Incarnation and Presence in the Eucharist confounds the wisdom of men
Corpus Christi Quiz
Pope leads Corpus Christi observance
This is My Body, This is My Blood
Feast of Corpus Christi - Sacrifice, Fellowship Meal or Real Presence?
The Eucharist and the Mystery of Fatherly Love
The Consecrated Host truly is the Bread of Heaven
Corpus Christi Around the World
Corpus Christi
HOMILIES PREACHED BY FATHER ALTIER ON CORPUS CHRISTI SUNDAY FROM 2001-2005
Back to the Future: Reviving Corpus Christi Processions
Homily of Pope Benedict XVI for the Feast of Corpus Christi
The Banquet of Corpus Christi - "Why did Jesus give us His Body and Blood?"
A Reflection on Corpus Christi
Corpus Christi celebrations in Poland (gallery)
Pope Leads Corpus Christi Procession - "We Entrust These Streets to His Goodness"
Day 37 of Pope Benedict XV's Reign - Feast of Corpus Christi
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