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"John 10:28-29 : 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

You are saying to me that this does not say that the believer himself cannot leave. The text says "no one", so you are apparently asking me to consider that the believer is not a person."

Here is what +John Chrysostomos says about this passage:

"Ver. 26. “But,” He saith, “I told you, and ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep.”
“For I on My part have fulfilled all that it behooved a Shepherd to do, and if ye follow Me not, it is not because I am not a Shepherd, but because ye are not My sheep.”
Ver. 27–30. “For My sheep hear My voice, and follow Me; and I give unto them eternal life ; neither can any man pluck them out of My hand. The Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are One.”
Observe how in renouncing He exciteth them to follow Him. “Ye hear Me not,” He saith, “for neither are ye sheep, but they who follow, these are of the flock.” This He said, that they might strive to become sheep. Then by mentioning what they should obtain, He maketh these men jealous, so as to
rouse them, and cause them to desire such things.
“What then? Is it through the power of the Father that no man plucketh them away, and hast thou no strength, but art too weak to guard them?” By no means. And in order that thou mayest learn that the expression, “The Father which gave them to Me,” is used on their account, that they might not again call Him an enemy of God, therefore, after asserting that, “No man plucketh them out of My hand,” He proceedeth to show, that His hand and the Father’s is One. Since had not this been so, it would have been natural for Him to say, “The Father which gave them to Me is greater than all, and no man can pluck them out of My hand.” But He said not so, but, “out of My Father’s hand.” Then that thou mayest not suppose that He indeed is weak, but that the sheep are in safety through the power of the Father, He addeth, “I and the Father are One.” As though He had said “I did not assert that on account of the Father no man plucketh them away, as though I were too weak to keep the sheep. For I and the Father are One.” Speaking here with reference to Power, for concerning this was all His discourse; and if the power be the same, it is clear that the Essence is also. And when the Jews used ten thousand means, plotting and casting men out of their synagogues, He telleth them that all their contrivances are useless and vain; “For the sheep are in My Father’s hand”; as the Prophet saith, “Upon My hand I have pictured thy walls.” (Isa. xlix. 16.) Then to show that the hand is One, He sometimes saith that it is His own, sometimes the Father’s. But when thou hearest the word “hand,” do not understand anything material, but the power, the authority. Again, if it was on this account that no one could pluck away the sheep, because the Father gave Him power, it would have been superfluous to say what follows, “I and the Father are One.” Since were He inferior to Him, this would have been a very daring saying, for it declares nothing else than an equality of power; of which the Jews were conscious, and took up stones to cast at Him. (Ver. 31.) Yet not evenso did He remove this opinion and suspicion; though if their suspicion were erroneous, He ought to have set them right, and to have said, “Wherefore do ye these things? I spake not thus to testify that my power and the Father’s are equal”; but now He doth quite the contrary, and confirmeth their suspicion, and clencheth it, and that too when they were exasperated. For He maketh no excuse for what had been said, as though it had been said ill, but rebuketh them for not entertaining a right opinion concerning Him."

And this from his Homily VI on Phillipians:

"As long as we are in the hand of God, “no one is able to pluck us out” (John x. 28.), for that hand is strong; but when we fall away from that hand and that help, then are we lost, then are we exposed, ready to be snatched away, as a “bowing wall, and a tottering fence” (Ps. lxii. 3.); when the wall is weak, it will be easy for all to surmount...What should have been done to My vineyard, that I have not done to it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth thorns? Now therefore I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be for a prey, and I will break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down. And I will leave My vineyard, and it shall not be pruned or digged, but thorns shall come up upon it, as upon a desert land. I will also command the clouds, that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the Lord of Sabaoth is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant. I looked that it should do judgment, but it did iniquity, and a cry instead of righteousness.” (Isa. v. 1–7, LXX.) This is spoken also of every soul. For when God who loveth man hath done all that is needful and man then bringeth forth thorns instead of grapes, He will take away the fence, and break down the wall, and we shall be for a prey. For hear what another prophet speaks in his lamentations: “Why hast thou broken down her fences, so that all they which pass by the way do pluck her? The boar out of the wood doth ravage it, and the wild beasts of the field feed on it.” (Ps. lxxx. 12, Ps. lxxx. 13.)"

Doesn't look like election or predestination or some eternal secuity to me. Indeed, from +John Chrysostomos' understanding, it is quite the opposite. Thus it seems clear that if one is encouraged to respond to God, that that response is born of God's grace and our free will, just as jumping out of God's hand into destruction likewise would be the result of free will.

Kolo, With all due respect (and no disrespect is meant here), John Chrysostom 1)was a human being 2)is not Scripture and; 3)is not here to defend his comments.

You are here, and we are interested in speaking with YOU on this most important subject: The Perseverance of the Saints.

Now, the contention on the table is that no man can pluck us out of Christ's hand but we ourselves can do so after we have been truly saved. To that, I would submit that you consider the following.

1st, the context. Yes, that pesky word that we always have to keep coming back to. The verse appears in the midst of several verses on the subject which negate the possibility of ever fully falling away from Christ if one is one of his sheep.

First, there was a parable about a shepherd, which Christ then goes forward and proclaims that HE is that shepherd. But what did the parable say? Verses 4 & 5 of John 10 say: "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. " So here, we have, posited by Christ Himself, that those who are His sheep WILL FOLLOW HIM and WILL NOT follow another.

But Christ goes even further than this. He makes the welfare of the sheep not dependent on the sheep at all, but upon Himself - the Good shepherd (and contrasts those that would allow the sheep to be scattered with himself in the process). Christ says: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Next, we see some of the Jews disputing what He said. "...many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? " And they grumbled. But what did Jesus say?

"I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. "

This points to John's words later: 1 John 2:19"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." The true sheep of Christ will never ultimately stray from the shepherd, but that same Shepherd will bring them back (or in some cases, take them home).

But Christ continues now with the verse quoted: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Per Thayer's lexicon, the never in this verse is not just your typical never; but rather, it is a particle of negation with a certain emphasis. He says "The particles ou mn, in combination augment the force of the negation, and signify not at all, in no wise, by no means . So, in translating this verse, the words could actually be translated:" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall not at all, in no wise, by any means ever perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Pretty strong language by Christ.

But, it goes beyond that lest you remain skeptical. Three chapters earlier, you find the phrase ou mn once again "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Using the example from the prior paragraph, we see the ou mn in the translation "no wise" or "no way" for modern speakers. So Christ says, ALL that the Father gives to me WILL COME. And of the ALL that come, he will NOT AT ALL, IN NO WISE, BY ANY MEANS EVER cast them out."

Again, I hear the objection "it doesn't mean we can't cast ourselves out. Well, go back to the chapter 10 example. Christ said that those who are his sheep WILL FOLLOW HIM and that they WILL NEVER, NOT AT ALL, IN NO WISE BY ANY MEANS EVER perish. So, this "we can cast ourselves out" really is a hypothetical without Scriptural support. If one leaves Christ, they were not of the fold to begin with.

But lets continue in Chapter 6 a little bit...John 6: 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Nothing in that verse means NONE. Once again, Christ puts the onus on himself with the protection of those who are His. And, He says, He will lose NONE of those that the Father has given him. Again, strong language. This verse is also found in context with the body and blood verses. He says to those listening: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." So, here, Jesus is putting an emphasis on those who believe verses those who may follow but really aren't believers (like Judas but not solely Judas since the verse is plural).

Just acting like a sheep doesn't make you a sheep. Following the Shepherd around and pretending you are part of the fold doesn't make you one either. Rather, the sheep are the ones chosen by the Father, who WILL BELIEVE, who WILL FOLLOW, and who are protected to the point of death by the GOOD SHEPHERD who will LOSE NONE of them and therefore they will NEVER PERISH. Therefore, it is an impossibility for a true Christian to ever fall away from Christ completely. We may stray, he leaves the 99 and goes after us. If we are disruptive enough to the fold, he may take us home. But, we never cease being His sheep for it was not of us that we became Sheep to begin with. He called us, named us, raised us, and protected us to be His Sheep of whom he would not lose a single one.

This should cause true Christians to rejoice. And, if you are someone who has a desire to stray, knows down deep you are playing at Christianity, it should cause you to examine yourself to see if you are truly of the faith.

Here is what +John Chrysostomos says about this passage [John 10:26-30]: ...

Thank you for the quotes from this and his Homily. I must respectfully say, though, that I found his analysis surprisingly weak. He begins by asserting a hypothesis out of thin air:

This He said, that they might strive to become sheep. Then by mentioning what they should obtain, He maketh these men jealous, so as to rouse them, and cause them to desire such things.

Then, I thought he attempted to "prove" it by somehow showing that the essence of the passage is just an expression, and that what the passage is really all about is Jesus asserting that He is equal with God. Maybe I got lost in the pronouns, but this argument seemed to be 100% opinion to me, not persuasive at all. Were this God's true goal, it makes the entire passage extraordinarily misleading to the innocent reader. It would make it just another in a very long list of passages in which the plain text had zero to do with the Apostolic interpretation.

And then from the Homily:

"As long as we are in the hand of God, “no one is able to pluck us out” (John x. 28.), for that hand is strong; but when we fall away from that hand and that help, then are we lost, then are we exposed, ready to be snatched away, as a “bowing wall, and a tottering fence” (Ps. lxii. 3.); ...

Just the opening statement tells me everything I really need to know about this man on this subject. First, with all due respect, right out of the chute he is blatantly misleading. He says "As long as we are in the hand of God ..." and then connects that to John 10:28. It isn't even close:

John 10:28 : 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. KJV

The preface is an outside conclusion he has drawn from somewhere, not this scripture. The reader who didn't bother to look up the verse would be very misled.

The next obvious problem is that he immediately dismisses the only thing he did accurately quote "no one is able to pluck us out". He says, in effect, that given this God must have a strong hand, but when we prove stronger and leap from it, then ... To me, this is absurd on its face.

But I do appreciate your showing these passages to me. I'm sort of laughing at myself because I can't remember the last time I had this visceral a reaction to one of these. :)

Doesn't look like election or predestination or some eternal security to me. Indeed, from +John Chrysostomos' understanding, it is quite the opposite.

Yes, this might explain it. :) Is it correct then that the Orthodox do not hold to any notion of election or predestination?