Replies

Kolo, With all due respect (and no disrespect is meant here), John Chrysostom 1)was a human being 2)is not Scripture and; 3)is not here to defend his comments.

You are here, and we are interested in speaking with YOU on this most important subject: The Perseverance of the Saints.

Now, the contention on the table is that no man can pluck us out of Christ's hand but we ourselves can do so after we have been truly saved. To that, I would submit that you consider the following.

1st, the context. Yes, that pesky word that we always have to keep coming back to. The verse appears in the midst of several verses on the subject which negate the possibility of ever fully falling away from Christ if one is one of his sheep.

First, there was a parable about a shepherd, which Christ then goes forward and proclaims that HE is that shepherd. But what did the parable say? Verses 4 & 5 of John 10 say: "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. " So here, we have, posited by Christ Himself, that those who are His sheep WILL FOLLOW HIM and WILL NOT follow another.

But Christ goes even further than this. He makes the welfare of the sheep not dependent on the sheep at all, but upon Himself - the Good shepherd (and contrasts those that would allow the sheep to be scattered with himself in the process). Christ says: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Next, we see some of the Jews disputing what He said. "...many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? " And they grumbled. But what did Jesus say?

"I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. "

This points to John's words later: 1 John 2:19"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." The true sheep of Christ will never ultimately stray from the shepherd, but that same Shepherd will bring them back (or in some cases, take them home).

But Christ continues now with the verse quoted: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Per Thayer's lexicon, the never in this verse is not just your typical never; but rather, it is a particle of negation with a certain emphasis. He says "The particles ou mn, in combination augment the force of the negation, and signify not at all, in no wise, by no means . So, in translating this verse, the words could actually be translated:" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall not at all, in no wise, by any means ever perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Pretty strong language by Christ.

But, it goes beyond that lest you remain skeptical. Three chapters earlier, you find the phrase ou mn once again "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Using the example from the prior paragraph, we see the ou mn in the translation "no wise" or "no way" for modern speakers. So Christ says, ALL that the Father gives to me WILL COME. And of the ALL that come, he will NOT AT ALL, IN NO WISE, BY ANY MEANS EVER cast them out."

Again, I hear the objection "it doesn't mean we can't cast ourselves out. Well, go back to the chapter 10 example. Christ said that those who are his sheep WILL FOLLOW HIM and that they WILL NEVER, NOT AT ALL, IN NO WISE BY ANY MEANS EVER perish. So, this "we can cast ourselves out" really is a hypothetical without Scriptural support. If one leaves Christ, they were not of the fold to begin with.

But lets continue in Chapter 6 a little bit...John 6: 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Nothing in that verse means NONE. Once again, Christ puts the onus on himself with the protection of those who are His. And, He says, He will lose NONE of those that the Father has given him. Again, strong language. This verse is also found in context with the body and blood verses. He says to those listening: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." So, here, Jesus is putting an emphasis on those who believe verses those who may follow but really aren't believers (like Judas but not solely Judas since the verse is plural).

Just acting like a sheep doesn't make you a sheep. Following the Shepherd around and pretending you are part of the fold doesn't make you one either. Rather, the sheep are the ones chosen by the Father, who WILL BELIEVE, who WILL FOLLOW, and who are protected to the point of death by the GOOD SHEPHERD who will LOSE NONE of them and therefore they will NEVER PERISH. Therefore, it is an impossibility for a true Christian to ever fall away from Christ completely. We may stray, he leaves the 99 and goes after us. If we are disruptive enough to the fold, he may take us home. But, we never cease being His sheep for it was not of us that we became Sheep to begin with. He called us, named us, raised us, and protected us to be His Sheep of whom he would not lose a single one.

This should cause true Christians to rejoice. And, if you are someone who has a desire to stray, knows down deep you are playing at Christianity, it should cause you to examine yourself to see if you are truly of the faith.

Terific post!

"But Christ goes even further than this. He makes the welfare of the sheep not dependent on the sheep at all, but upon Himself - the Good shepherd"

Amen! If His promise is true, then rejoice. The Shepherd will not abandon His flock, but will bring them safely home.

"For non-reformed theologies...at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God -- and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place." - D.A. Carson

"And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you." -- Isaiah 46:4

Again, I hear the objection "it doesn't mean we can't cast ourselves out. Well, go back to the chapter 10 example. Christ said that those who are his sheep WILL FOLLOW HIM and that they WILL NEVER, NOT AT ALL, IN NO WISE BY ANY MEANS EVER perish. So, this "we can cast ourselves out" really is a hypothetical without Scriptural support. If one leaves Christ, they were not of the fold to begin with.

Amen!

Therefore, it is an impossibility for a true Christian to ever fall away from Christ completely. We may stray, he leaves the 99 and goes after us. If we are disruptive enough to the fold, he may take us home. But, we never cease being His sheep for it was not of us that we became Sheep to begin with. He called us, named us, raised us, and protected us to be His Sheep of whom he would not lose a single one.

It is the condemned of this world who want us cowered and uncertain. We must resist their urging to doubt God's mercy and instead, stand firm in the knowledge that "He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6).

Here's the problem, B and its such a problem that frankly when we Catholics and Orthodox say that we seem to worship a different God from you Protestants, its not just hyperbole.

Our basic beliefs about theosis are totally different, indeed our conception of the state of man both before and after the Fall, the reason for the Incarnation, the sacrifice on the Cross, the descent into the place of the dead and the Resurrection are all different. What we believe, The Church has always believed. I can't say that there weren't people in the early days of Christianity who believed what you do, but I have never read any such thing. The early Fathers, the liturgists who put together the Divine Liturgies of both the East and the West, whose successors later assembled the canon of the NT, read the same words you do and came to the understanding that +John Chrysostomos did. +John Chrysostomos is a one off example. What I posted expresses the consensus patrum as preserved in The Church.

When you speak of predestination, we don't understand you; when you speak of being "saved" and mean something different from Theosis or salvation as the Latin Church says, we don't understand you. When you say that God chose before all time, say, one of five human beings for eternity with Him and the rest he damns to hell, we don't understand you. You firmly believe that the passage in question establishes that once you accept Christ as your savior, you're in His hand and can't ever "fall or jump" out until the time you are sanctified and by then you're, I assume, dead and your soul is with God. Allow me to suggest that this theology is a necessary consequence of your concepts of election and predestination, the perfect nature of Adam & Eve prior to the Fall and the utter depravity of man after the Fall. In such a theological universe, salvation is a given for the elect, damnation for the rest and of course, since its a lock, there really is no need, it seems to me, to even speak of being secure in God's hand or the perseverence of the saints or how faith is manifest in works. Indeed, one wonders why there are scriptures at all. If the elect are the elect from before all time, what's the point of the scriptures? They have nothing useful to teach the elect and the damned are lost anyway.

The only theological construct in which the scriptures can have any meaning is one within which all men are created with the potential, not the certainty, of all to fulfill God's purposes in making their creation, that they be in the image and likeness of Himself. In such a system, everyone who would fulfill God's plan of creation must freely respond to the grace which God pours out on everyone and everything. The scriptures teach us how to respond and equally importantly, how not to respond, which is to say, to reject God's call.

The Church is keenly aware of sin and its consequences in the world. It never ceases to remind us that we are sinners and calls us to repentence. For true reformed Protestants, what point would there be in ever speaking of sin? Is it a tenet of that system that once saved one cannot/won't sin? Is it rather that one can sin but the sin is immediately forgiven and there are no consequences either to the individual or society or creation of that sin? After all, once we're in God's hand, we're there forever, right? Aside from creating false hope in the hearts of the damned, what is the point of the scriptures in the system you clearly hold to?

The Fathers taught us that God gave us a "second chance" when He died on the Cross and destroyed the power we gave death over us through sin, a second chance at seizing the same opportunity He graced Adam & Eve with at their creation and which they lost when they sinned. Its no answer to say that God predestined the Fall and the Incarnation to fix what He had set up in the first place. Its no answer to say that the elect/saints, secure in the hand of God, must persevere because they are predestined to persevere because they are the elect/saints.

If the image of the sheep were meant to convey the eternal security of the sheep even form itself, then how come Christ speaks of lost sheep?

"the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."