What I am saying is that the idea that morality comes from bottom to top -- from the individual to law of the land in some democratic fashion -- is the same idea that said that Christianity comes from bottom to top -- from laity reading and interpreting the scripture autonomously and possibly in contradiction to the faith handed down through the Church. I am, of course, fully aware that fundamentalist Protestant Christianity is a bulwark of traditional morality and we are happy to have you as ally in this fight.
This point of view is exactly why I must constantly remind myself that when a RC speaks of "The Church" I should only think of the hierarchy. It seems to me that you are describing SOLELY a top-down structure. I do not counter that morality comes from bottom to top, but rather that morality comes from God to all believers. In our structure, and I believe to a great degree also with the Orthodox, the top is fully accountable to the down, AND vice-versa. There IS a God-given role for leaders, and there is also a God-given role for the laity. In our system, they are not nearly as far apart as I perceive in the Latin system.
On your last point, I appreciate very much what you're saying and return the sentiments in kind. During the election last year, I was very blessed to work arm-in-arm with many Catholics in trying to defeat the stem-cell (cloning) Amendment here in MO. I know that the RCC will always be a reliable partner on all of these types of issues. It is good to know. :)
I read the scripture and I see my Church in every chapter.
Well of course. The Church tells you what to see. :)
The veneration of saints is based on the concept of eternal life; on the visions of angels and those asleep in Christ who are like angels taking interest in the events on Earth; on the concept of Christians acting as an interdependent community praying and interceding for one another. No doubt you are familiar with these ideas, you just don't apply them to the Communion of Saints due to the Protestant mental conditioning. ...
IOW, the veneration of saints is based on no scripture at all. :) You told me yourself that there is nothing necessarily eternal about "eternal life". That is Tradition. I have no idea what you are talking about concerning "the departed", who ARE asleep in Christ, taking interest in events on earth. So that's Tradition. Physically alive Christians praying for one another is fully Biblical. Saints interceding is not. So that's also Tradition. Lots of Tradition, no scripture. Here, the Bible gives me one, clear and distinct message:
Mark 12:30 : 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
I don't understand how we are loving the Lord in this way by praying to saints instead of Him.
FK: "I have room for compromise here."
See? And previously you admitted that irresistible grace and the role of works are a wash. So these fundamental issues -- where salvation hangs in the balance -- cannot be resolved conclusively from scripture alone.
HA! Man, do you make it tough to find any common ground at all! :) What I said was that I have room to compromise on whether an unbiased, first-and-only-time-reader of the Bible would conclude that infant baptism was OK. My other comments were based on the same premise, a one-time reading. If we were to otherwise suppose multiple readings and reasonable study, then the issue of salvation WOULD conclusively tilt WAY in favor of the Reformed view, IMO. I don't think it would even be close. Even with 100 years of scriptural study, there is simply no way possible to arrive at a great many Catholic conclusions about salvation based on scripture.
FK: "Depending on what you mean by "solid", I would disagree. I think the principles of the trinity are laid out very well in scripture."
I plead history here. The Arians, the Marcionites and the gnostics read the same scripture and came back with (I grossly oversimplify) Christ being a smart inspired man, Christ being a second God fighting the first one; Christ being a spirit and not man.
Well, regardless of how many sects (whatever) got it completely wrong, that doesn't change that a fair reading of scripture DOES reveal the Trinity, IMO. For example:
Matt 28:19 : Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ... [remember Paul's follow-up stressing the importance of whose name someone should be baptized in].
2 Cor 13:14 : 14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
1 Peter 1:1-2 : 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
I mean, come on. :) In my view, the clear foundation is unmistakable. There are plenty of other examples. See Rom. 14:17-18; 15:16; 1 Cor. 2:2-5; 6:11; 2 Cor. 1:21-22; Gal. 4:6; Eph. 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Col. 1:6-8; 1 Thes. 1:3-5; 2 Thes. 2:13-14; and Titus 3:4-6. I'd say all these together make a pretty reasonable case. :)
FK: "Who cares about 21c.? Why is that such a big deal?"
It is a big deal because the Scripture was written by 1c men (or by ancient Hebrews) and addressed their contemporaries. If you see that a 21c man understands the scripture differently than the contemporaries of the inspired writer, then the 21c man is wrong in his interpretation every time it happens.
Well, scripture is either timeless or it is not. I believe the general audience of the scriptures is believers of all time. That's what I was saying. I don't buy for a minute that a contemporary is correct just for being a contemporary. I'm sure you would agree that there were plenty of contemporaries right from the start who got things wrong, even from your point of view. There were also some who got some things right. It just isn't automatic.
Yes, that is the difference. In other words, if a protestant pastor decides that homosexuality is OK all he needs to do is start his own Church. A priest, however, cannot do that.
By the way, I had a scripture-only discussion with someone who maintained that our stance on homosexuality is overstating the scripture. His view was that every time (or at least in most striking passages form St. Paul) homosexuality is condemned it is "lying with a man as if with a woman" is condemned, and he interpreted it as bi-sexuality, not as someone who is 100% gay and does not pretend otherwise. Ridiculous? Yes. But he made a solid case from scripture. I was amazed.
You told me yourself that there is nothing necessarily eternal about "eternal life".
What?
I have no idea what you are talking about concerning "the departed", who ARE asleep in Christ, taking interest in events on earth
Saints Praying for Us on Earth
If we need Biblical proof of saints in Heaven praying for us on earth, we need only look to the book of Revelation, which was written by John, the beloved disciple of Jesus. The martyred called out to the Lord for justice on earth (Rev. 6.9-11). Were they seeking revenge? Obviously not! If these souls were in Heaven, as recorded by the inspired writer, then an evil motive is not within their capacity. These martyrs were praying for God to end the evil on the earth and bring justice to the righteous.More men and women are shown in Heaven: "A great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands."(Rev. 7:9) "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple." (Rev. 7:14-17)
Next we see the saints in Heaven offer their prayers to God in the form of incense.(Rev 5:8) As the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand, the censer is filled with fire from the altar, and thrown at the earth.(Rev 8:3-5) Immediately, events on the earth are affected by the prayers of the saints by the angels with the seven trumpets.(Rev. 8:1)
The saints are praying for the members of the body of Christ who are still on earth and not in Heaven. Although they are not physically present to each other, the saints and the faithful on earth remained united by the Love of Christ.
The inspired writer of the letter to the Hebrews shows this clearly when he states, "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith." (Heb. 12:1-2) Who are the witnesses surrounding us to whom the writer refers?
If we look at the context from the previous chapter of Hebrews, the witnesses referred to are the faithful! (Note: The bible was not originally written in chapter and verse. It was later divide into such an arrangement for easier study.) Hebrews names these people of faith in chronological order of appearance in the Old Testament: Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David and Samuel and the prophets, and others who experienced mocking and scourging, chains and imprisonments. They were stoned, sawn in two, tempted, put to death by the sword. They were destitute, afflicted, and ill-treated. (Heb 11.1-37) "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."(Heb 11.39-40)
These people comprise the cloud of witnesses that surrounds us. These are the martyrs that cry out for justice before the throne.(Rev. 6.9-11) These comprise the great multitude in Heaven that no one can count.(Rev. 7.9) And these saints, along with all those who pass from this earthly life to the fullness of life in Heaven in Christ, intercede for us constantly until the day when Jesus returns and His angels gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Matt. 24.31)
The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Hell yields another instance of those in Heaven being able to intercede for others. Jesus tells that the rich man asked Abraham's intercession on two accounts. The rich man's requests indicate that he knows that Abraham has the power to accomplish this task. (The rich man requested that a person return to his earthly brothers and warn them that hell exists and that they are headed in that direction if they do not become righteous. (Luke 16.19-31)). And we know that Abraham does not do so by his own power, but only through the power of God. Although Abraham denies the rich man's request, we see that the rich man recognizes Abraham's intercessory power to assist people on earth.
In fact, there are only two reasons from scripture for honoring saints (those who have died and are in Heaven):
The basic scriptural argument for the Communion of Saints stems from the following logic:
- Because of their position in the Body of Christ. "Give double honor (twice as much) to the teaching elders who rule the household of faith." (1 Timothy 5:17). "Esteem them more abundantly who are over you in the faith." (1 Thessalonians 5:13). "Submit ourselves to our leaders and obey them." (Hebrews 13:7).
- Because of what God has done in the person. "All generations will call me blessed, for the almighty has done great things in me." (Luke 1:47-78). Mary's greatness stems from the great works God performed through her, however she is not used as an instrument and tossed aside. Likewise, if we cooperate with the Will of God, we grow in greatness.
Some have argued that praying to the dead is condemned by scripture in Deuteronomy 18:11, 1 Samuel 28:3-20; 2 Chronicles 10:13, 14; Isaiah 8:19-22, etc. Catholics agree, communication with the dead, know as "necromancy" is a great sin and opens the door to greater demonic pursuits. However, there is a distinction between those who have died and those who are alive in Christ. St. Luke says: "He is not the God of the dead but of the living."(Luke 20.38) Surely that must include those of us in his love on earth and those of us who are alive in his love more perfectly in heaven.
- All Christians are members of Christ's body and one another (Rom 12:5, etc.)
- Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4; Col 3:15)
- Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39)
- Christians are bound in mutual Love (Rom 12:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:11; Gal 6:2, etc.)
Simply stated, those who have died and are in heaven (Saints) are more alive than those of us who reside on earth according to St. Paul, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."(1 Cor. 13.12)
If you doubt the power of the prayer of a righteous saint, ask God for His pardon (if you feel necessary to do so) as you invoke the intercession of a saint. You will honor God's established economy of salvation when you ask a saint to pray for a specific intention. There are many saints to choose from, and they have many unique gifts. St. Luke was a physician, St. Matthew was good with numbers, St. Paul was a good evangelist, St. Stephen died the first martyr, St. Mary Magdalene honored Jesus, St. Mary the Mother of God cooperated with the will of God, etc. Ask any or all of these holy, Christian men and women who have gone before us in the faith for their prayers as you would a Christian friend here on earth. For our brothers and sisters who died in Christ also rose with Christ; bodily death cannot separate us from the love of Christ nor from each other as members of His mystical Body. These holy men and women enjoy the glorified fellowship of God right now and will gladly intercede with God for your needs.
I don't understand how we are loving the Lord in this way by praying to saints instead of Him.
If we love God, we love what He does. Sainthood is what he does. He makes saints, and we admire His work in them.
Even with 100 years of scriptural study, there is simply no way possible to arrive at a great many Catholic conclusions about salvation based on scripture.
I've been doing it on this thread as fast as I can type. There is ample scriptural case for works cooperating with grace onto salvation. And it is plain text, too: Romans 2, Matthew 25, James 2.
a fair reading of scripture DOES reveal the Trinity
I agree. But the Arians disagreed. The Jehovah's Witnesses disagree today.
there were plenty of contemporaries right from the start who got things wrong
But they were corrected by other Church fathers. The consensus of the fathers is the standard by which our reading is to be measured. Christ the Eternal Word is timeless. But the text of the Scripture is evidently local in time and place, as we see examples when translatpons do not express the meaning very well.