Yes, that is the difference. In other words, if a protestant pastor decides that homosexuality is OK all he needs to do is start his own Church. A priest, however, cannot do that.
By the way, I had a scripture-only discussion with someone who maintained that our stance on homosexuality is overstating the scripture. His view was that every time (or at least in most striking passages form St. Paul) homosexuality is condemned it is "lying with a man as if with a woman" is condemned, and he interpreted it as bi-sexuality, not as someone who is 100% gay and does not pretend otherwise. Ridiculous? Yes. But he made a solid case from scripture. I was amazed.
You told me yourself that there is nothing necessarily eternal about "eternal life".
What?
I have no idea what you are talking about concerning "the departed", who ARE asleep in Christ, taking interest in events on earth
Saints Praying for Us on Earth
If we need Biblical proof of saints in Heaven praying for us on earth, we need only look to the book of Revelation, which was written by John, the beloved disciple of Jesus. The martyred called out to the Lord for justice on earth (Rev. 6.9-11). Were they seeking revenge? Obviously not! If these souls were in Heaven, as recorded by the inspired writer, then an evil motive is not within their capacity. These martyrs were praying for God to end the evil on the earth and bring justice to the righteous.More men and women are shown in Heaven: "A great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands."(Rev. 7:9) "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple." (Rev. 7:14-17)
Next we see the saints in Heaven offer their prayers to God in the form of incense.(Rev 5:8) As the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand, the censer is filled with fire from the altar, and thrown at the earth.(Rev 8:3-5) Immediately, events on the earth are affected by the prayers of the saints by the angels with the seven trumpets.(Rev. 8:1)
The saints are praying for the members of the body of Christ who are still on earth and not in Heaven. Although they are not physically present to each other, the saints and the faithful on earth remained united by the Love of Christ.
The inspired writer of the letter to the Hebrews shows this clearly when he states, "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith." (Heb. 12:1-2) Who are the witnesses surrounding us to whom the writer refers?
If we look at the context from the previous chapter of Hebrews, the witnesses referred to are the faithful! (Note: The bible was not originally written in chapter and verse. It was later divide into such an arrangement for easier study.) Hebrews names these people of faith in chronological order of appearance in the Old Testament: Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David and Samuel and the prophets, and others who experienced mocking and scourging, chains and imprisonments. They were stoned, sawn in two, tempted, put to death by the sword. They were destitute, afflicted, and ill-treated. (Heb 11.1-37) "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."(Heb 11.39-40)
These people comprise the cloud of witnesses that surrounds us. These are the martyrs that cry out for justice before the throne.(Rev. 6.9-11) These comprise the great multitude in Heaven that no one can count.(Rev. 7.9) And these saints, along with all those who pass from this earthly life to the fullness of life in Heaven in Christ, intercede for us constantly until the day when Jesus returns and His angels gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Matt. 24.31)
The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Hell yields another instance of those in Heaven being able to intercede for others. Jesus tells that the rich man asked Abraham's intercession on two accounts. The rich man's requests indicate that he knows that Abraham has the power to accomplish this task. (The rich man requested that a person return to his earthly brothers and warn them that hell exists and that they are headed in that direction if they do not become righteous. (Luke 16.19-31)). And we know that Abraham does not do so by his own power, but only through the power of God. Although Abraham denies the rich man's request, we see that the rich man recognizes Abraham's intercessory power to assist people on earth.
In fact, there are only two reasons from scripture for honoring saints (those who have died and are in Heaven):
The basic scriptural argument for the Communion of Saints stems from the following logic:
- Because of their position in the Body of Christ. "Give double honor (twice as much) to the teaching elders who rule the household of faith." (1 Timothy 5:17). "Esteem them more abundantly who are over you in the faith." (1 Thessalonians 5:13). "Submit ourselves to our leaders and obey them." (Hebrews 13:7).
- Because of what God has done in the person. "All generations will call me blessed, for the almighty has done great things in me." (Luke 1:47-78). Mary's greatness stems from the great works God performed through her, however she is not used as an instrument and tossed aside. Likewise, if we cooperate with the Will of God, we grow in greatness.
Some have argued that praying to the dead is condemned by scripture in Deuteronomy 18:11, 1 Samuel 28:3-20; 2 Chronicles 10:13, 14; Isaiah 8:19-22, etc. Catholics agree, communication with the dead, know as "necromancy" is a great sin and opens the door to greater demonic pursuits. However, there is a distinction between those who have died and those who are alive in Christ. St. Luke says: "He is not the God of the dead but of the living."(Luke 20.38) Surely that must include those of us in his love on earth and those of us who are alive in his love more perfectly in heaven.
- All Christians are members of Christ's body and one another (Rom 12:5, etc.)
- Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4; Col 3:15)
- Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39)
- Christians are bound in mutual Love (Rom 12:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:11; Gal 6:2, etc.)
Simply stated, those who have died and are in heaven (Saints) are more alive than those of us who reside on earth according to St. Paul, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."(1 Cor. 13.12)
If you doubt the power of the prayer of a righteous saint, ask God for His pardon (if you feel necessary to do so) as you invoke the intercession of a saint. You will honor God's established economy of salvation when you ask a saint to pray for a specific intention. There are many saints to choose from, and they have many unique gifts. St. Luke was a physician, St. Matthew was good with numbers, St. Paul was a good evangelist, St. Stephen died the first martyr, St. Mary Magdalene honored Jesus, St. Mary the Mother of God cooperated with the will of God, etc. Ask any or all of these holy, Christian men and women who have gone before us in the faith for their prayers as you would a Christian friend here on earth. For our brothers and sisters who died in Christ also rose with Christ; bodily death cannot separate us from the love of Christ nor from each other as members of His mystical Body. These holy men and women enjoy the glorified fellowship of God right now and will gladly intercede with God for your needs.
I don't understand how we are loving the Lord in this way by praying to saints instead of Him.
If we love God, we love what He does. Sainthood is what he does. He makes saints, and we admire His work in them.
Even with 100 years of scriptural study, there is simply no way possible to arrive at a great many Catholic conclusions about salvation based on scripture.
I've been doing it on this thread as fast as I can type. There is ample scriptural case for works cooperating with grace onto salvation. And it is plain text, too: Romans 2, Matthew 25, James 2.
a fair reading of scripture DOES reveal the Trinity
I agree. But the Arians disagreed. The Jehovah's Witnesses disagree today.
there were plenty of contemporaries right from the start who got things wrong
But they were corrected by other Church fathers. The consensus of the fathers is the standard by which our reading is to be measured. Christ the Eternal Word is timeless. But the text of the Scripture is evidently local in time and place, as we see examples when translatpons do not express the meaning very well.
Prayers of the saints means folk like you and me, annalex. WE are God's saints when we receive Jesus Christ into our lives. The early saints were just common folk who prayed to God and God heard them. They weren't canonized people, they were ordinary and everyday people who believed God.
Sure, a pastor could do that, but that would just make him an apostate. He would only have the backing of other apostates. There's nothing to stop a priest from doing exactly the same thing. He just couldn't call it a Roman Catholic Church. I'm sure it has happened.
By the way, I had a scripture-only discussion with someone who maintained that our stance on homosexuality is overstating the scripture. His view was that every time (or at least in most striking passages form St. Paul) homosexuality is condemned it is "lying with a man as if with a woman" is condemned, and he interpreted it as bi-sexuality, not as someone who is 100% gay and does not pretend otherwise. Ridiculous? Yes. But he made a solid case from scripture. I was amazed.
That's interesting. I'd like to see that. I can't imagine a (wrong but) plausible scriptural argument for homosexuality. I wonder what Biblical "sexual perversion" would be to a homosexual. Maybe I shouldn't ask. :)
FK: "You told me yourself that there is nothing necessarily eternal about "eternal life"."
What?
The Catholic view is that there is nothing eternal about eternal life until one faces final judgment. During physical life, "eternal life" only lasts until the next mortal sin. That isn't eternal, that is temporary. One comparison might be to time itself. Outside of God, a scientist might say that time is eternal. If that scientist had the power to literally stop time in its tracks, then he would not make such a statement. For a thing to be eternal it must be assured.
[From "Saints Praying for Us on Earth":] If we need Biblical proof of saints in Heaven praying for us on earth, we need only look to the book of Revelation, which was written by John, the beloved disciple of Jesus. The martyred called out to the Lord for justice on earth (Rev. 6.9-11).
Thanks for the article, but this part is not persuasive. This is talking about the end times, and there will be MANY first and only time occurrences. I don't think this can be fairly used to say it has been happening all along.
[Ibid.] ..."(Heb. 12:1-2) Who are the witnesses surrounding us to whom the writer refers? If we look at the context from the previous chapter of Hebrews, the witnesses referred to are the faithful! ...... These people comprise the cloud of witnesses that surrounds us. ...... And these saints, along with all those who pass from this earthly life to the fullness of life in Heaven in Christ, intercede for us constantly until the day when Jesus returns ...
What? This is talking about the memory of their examples, not that they were literally floating around them right there. If they were literally "surrounded" then that would mean they were in the earthly presence of spirits. Does Catholicism teach that? In addition, there is no connection made between the "surrounding" and that they intercede for us constantly during life. Where does that come from?