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To: kosta50; wmfights; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; Blogger; ...
This would imply that God can be 'bought.' If that's how the Protestants understand God's integrity, it would be the ultimate in anthropomorphism.

Uh, no, just the opposite. We're making the point that because something is free, it cannot be bought.

There is no need whatsoever to call it free, or a gift. In fact, it's just plain wrong and misleading.

God's grace is the predestined mercy He has chosen to bestow upon some men through the sacrifice of His Son. If you think it is wrong to call grace a "gift," then your argument is, again, with Paul.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." -- Ephesians 2:8-9

9,915 posted on 02/09/2007 10:59:03 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Man is the one bought, ransomed by the blood of Jesus.

Mathew 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mr 10:45

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

9,917 posted on 02/09/2007 11:08:17 PM PST by 1000 silverlings
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Some of the things I read on this thread are just unbelievable, such as the ridiculous statement, "There is no need whatsoever to call it free, or a gift. In fact, it's just plain wrong and misleading."

Do these people not even own a bible?

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:14-18 KJV)

Carry on.

9,924 posted on 02/09/2007 11:44:53 PM PST by P-Marlowe (What happened to my tagline?)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; annalex; wmfights; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; ...
If you think it is wrong to call grace a "gift," then your argument is, again, with Paul...[Eph 2:89]

Grace is an act of God, Dr. E. It's not a commodity.

+Paul meant to say that it wasn't earned.

9,935 posted on 02/10/2007 1:06:14 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50; wmfights; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan; ...
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." -- Ephesians 2:8-9

Kosta: here is our most fundamental difference. We believe that God's grace is given us freely and not from anything we can, or could, do. If I understand your sect correctly your belief is much more along the lines of Judaism, in that you believe you are found righteous before God based on the lifetime of your works. Thus I look at your sect and see a works based belief in salvation.

I'm not sure whether you believe the Holy Spirit indwells believers, or not. We do and we further believe that it is because of the indwelling Holy Spirit convicting us in our sin and guiding us that we mature and are sanctified.

9,948 posted on 02/10/2007 7:30:09 AM PST by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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