OK, so you're saying a big reason why you do it is that it works. Fair enough. Let me ask you this, do you think the results would have been different if each of those prayers had been directed solely at God instead of through St. Anthony?
So I get, after the flesh, the idea of saying to some sergeant, "Listen, You gotta do something. You have to tell the sheriff we just can't keep doing it this way." And after having done that a few times and had it "work", I can see saying, "Sarge, go do your stuff, PLEASE! Give us a break here!" So in the context of a series of interactions involving lots of intercessions and one remarkably effective intercessor, I think the phrasing [St. Mary save us!] is not as repellent "upon further review" as it is on its face.
I think most people have been through what you describe in their working lives. What you're saying is perfectly reasonable and I have handled it similarly too. Now, imagine that the sheriff was the most dedicated Christian man of God you had ever met in your life. Would you have just gone directly to Him with your honest disagreement? I think I would have. And think how much greater is God Himself than any among us, even the most faithful.
Okay, Mary and Martha and the good portion: This was totally ignored earlier, but for me, in my personal experience, I do not think I am NOT talking to God, just because I'm talking to you. A fortiori, I do not think that talking to Mary means I stopped talking to God. I don't say this as an argument, but as a report of experience.
But I don't "think" you talk to me in any way similar to the way you talk to Mary. Whenever we go to prayer we comport ourselves in a certain way, we try to clear our minds, we might bow our heads and close our eyes, etc. We enter a prayerful state. None of this happens when we speak with each other.
Now, I think the Bible teaches that our goal is to be in this prayer state all the time. I can only report that I am not there yet. :) This makes my prayer time a scarce resource, intermixed with my other Christian duties in daily life. (We'll just leave out my sin time for convenience. :) Anyway, since I suppose that time with Mary is also spent in a prayerful state, I see it as a lost opportunity with God.
... That's what it's like! I get in the pew and on my knees, let go of the rope [waterskier's rope in your metaphor], and sink into the love and mystery. Then the whole thing is "the good portion". And I think this may account for the sense of outrage when people make contemptuous and disparaging remarks about our devotional behavior.
That's a good word: "devotion". How would you use the word "devotion" in your interactions with Mary and the saints? Every faith-based reference to "devotion" I could find in my Bible only spoke of devotion to God alone. I think a big problem many Protestants have is that we really think you all have a devotion to Mary that is separate from your devotion to God. In fact, it was no work at all for me to find several Catholic prayers, from Catholic sites, advertised as being in devotion TO Mary.
So when some smart alec talks about our "droning" our way through rosaries and so on and contemptuously compares what we do to Tibetan prayer wheels, my gut reaction is not far from the one I would have if somebody made fun of what my wife and I went through.
I am thankful to God for the blessing on you and your wife. That is wonderful to hear. I would have contempt on anyone who would make fun of what you went through. I would just say that I don't think comments about the method of prayer would be intended to be nearly as personal, since those would apply to a billion people equally. But I certainly DO understand not liking it. Viva FR! :)
I think you not be appreciating one other - perhaps the foundation - of the Communion of Saints.
Independent of our prayer life, they are with it, in communion with us, alive in Christ. We are one.
The knowledge and truth of this has value beyond the simple area of communication focused on in your current discussion.
Yeah - only I wouldn't dignify the process with the name of thinking. But St. Anthony is famous for helping people find stuff. So the suggestion (and that's all it is) is that God LIKES it (so to speak) when we ask the saints to intercede for us.
All MY sheriff's office example was meant to deal with was the argument that saying "Mary save us" was not necessarily asking for anything more than intercession. It won't help with whether it's good to pray to the saints for their intercession.
But I don't "think" you talk to me in any way similar to the way you talk to Mary.You haven't heard me talk to Mary! Or actually, on a minute by minute basis, I talk to God more than I talk to Mary. Sometimes I talk to Mary or to other saints, doing the dished, cooking breakfast, shivering outside while I gather wood, whatever, but mostly I talk to God the Father, and some to Jesus.
It's when I really want to listen that I do the bowing the head etc.
And you haven't heard me, as a counsellor or (former, sort of) pastor, talk to another human-type personnel. When I am pastorally counselling I am in my "victim's" (okay, "client", but victim is funnier) presence AND in God's presence, and remembering where I am. So that praying and "counselling" blend into each other.
And often I am the mediator, yes,that's right: even I! (sometimes I think God has NO class, no discrimination -- and I'm glad!) The person who came to me came to me, precisely to speak to God and to hear God. I am supposed to be the telephone and more, the facilitator of communication,. (Any human who thinks s/he's worthy of being a chaplain or a pastor is out of his or her as the case may be mind. SO in general, when I am being REALLY facetious and "un-recollected" THEN there's a difference between talking to you and talking to God, but when I'm behaving, there's not. God is here; you are here; let's talk - which includes listening.
Simple, facetious syllogism: Mary is in God's company' I am (trying to be) in Mary's company; therefore I am (trying to be) in God's company. AS I said earlier in another post, when (as we usually do) the boss-lady and I combine our intercessions with our Rosary, it is even more fluid than turning from one speaker or auditor to another to go from "Hail, Mary" to "Please bless so-and so.
God is here, for everywhere is "here" to God. Mary is with God -> Mary is here . The problem with prayer is that we are so rarely here.
Please don't think of this as argument. This is more reporting, and, of course, I could be very deluded. It just doesn't seem like that. It seems more like being in love.
De-votion -- Word study time. I have no idea how it's used in the Bible. As it shapes it has to do with vows. Then there's the song "Hopelessly Devoted". I have no clue where that leaves us.
Thanks for your nice words about what the boss-lady and I went through. It was not nice. The child, now a young adult, is fabulous.
Thank you for this conversation. It's very nice.