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Truly if a person says "listen to me because I am ordained or confirmed or whatever" he is changing the focus from God to himself - and that can never end well.

I could scarcely disagree more (with the possible exception of the "whatever" where, of course, I agree wholeheartedly).

From my POV: Ordination and confirmation are acts of the Holy Spirit. So, from my POV to say that someone has been confirmed or ordained is to say that the Holy Spirit has done a work in that someone. For someone to say, "Listen to me because the Holy Spirit has done a work in me," strikes me as Biblical and not very different from saying, "Judge my life and see if I show the fruits of the Spirit," - with respect to taking attention away from God and directing it to the individual.

However, neither is sufficient to justify drawing an audience. There are diversities of gifts, and displaying the fruits of the Spirit does not demonstrate that one has the vocation or gifts of a theologian or teacher.

This is formal disagreement; that is, it seemed you were making a statement you considered self-evident, and I wanted to note that it was not evident to this particular self.

Ordination and confirmation are acts of the Holy Spirit.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! NO WAY.

I suspect that even in your system . . . the statement has been made some time or other that

ORDINATION AND CONFIRMATION are merely human system confirmations of

WHAT HOLY SPIRIT HAS ALREADY DONE.

i.e. thoughtful flattering rubber stamping what Holy Spirit has already done . . . so that the officials feel like they earn their keep and the flock have all the formal accoutraments to clearly detect someone super kosher--especially according to man's sanction--vs someone 'merely' Holy Spirit alone seems to sanction.

I mean, we have to have something for the gold braid makers and the gold floss weavers to do.

Thank you so very much for your reply! I always treasure your insights, dear Mad Dawg.

I absolutely agree with you! No one should present a credential and say "you must listen to me because..." That would be wrong.

And the only audience which counts is the one that the Father draws:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44

So when anyone asks me whether or not they should listen to another person concerning Spiritual matters, I direct them to the Scriptures for counsel: the test of spirits (1 John 4), the good tree/good fruit test (Matt 7 and Gal 5), the Berean test (Acts 17) and the leading of the indwelling Spirit (John 14-17, Romans 8, I Cor 2)

I apply all of those tests to my own words - so if anything I say fails on any of those points in the eyes of another person, that person should not listen to me either.

After all, one of my earnest continual prayers is that His Light will shine unobstructed by me.