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To: Blogger; annalex
Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Period.

Please define works - because it appears, from your subsequent writing - that you and Paul have different ideas on how we are saved...

"Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. Who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with God. For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another" Romans 2:4-15

This passage, immediately preceding Romans 3, destroys your idea of salvation. Paul here says a number of things that you seem to disagree with. For example, we are justified by something that we do... EVEN GENTILES are inhabited by the Spirit and CAN show the work of the law written in their hearts.

It would be quite amazing if Paul wrote this, and then, one chapter later, would say something totally opposite and deny it. That is why I ask you to define works, because I believe this is where you are confused.

Christ's salvation was a gift. If we do one thing to contribute to it it isn't a gift any more, it is recompense.

That is not what Romans 4:4 says:

"Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt."

Those who are trying to earn salvation are "working" - and will demand a wage. However, by "doing something", it doesn't follow that we will take this to God and demand a wage. This totally misunderstands that fact that God and man are in a covenantal relationship, a relationship of love, not a legal relationship. Thus, a person who responds to God's love by loving Him in return is doing what is expected from the faithful servant. This doesn't earn us anything. Nonetheless, we are considered just by God because of our positive response to His free gift - since the DOER of the Law is justified. Christ says the same thing...

"For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" Mat 5:20

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 7:21

Christ paid the debt in full. How dare anyone say it wasn't enough or complete.

"I Paul am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are lacking of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church". Col 1:24

Christ paid the debt in full for all men. But is it applied to everyone? Was Paul's offering of himself for the sake of the church pointless?

Regards

8,242 posted on 01/31/2007 8:10:09 PM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus
Salvifically we have already been justified, are being sanctified, and will be glorified before God. It's over. Done. Jesus did it. We are saved. Can't lose it. Won't lose it. Because the Father gave us to Christ and Christ will lose none of us.

Where the works of the Christian are judged is at the judgment seat of Christ. We aren't judged for our sins because Christ took our judgment and there is no more judgment for our sins. Christ's work was sufficient. Our works are judged for reward. Those things which were done with poor motivation will be burned up. Those things done for the glory of God will bring a reward. We will then take those rewards and give them to the only one deserving of them- Jesus Himself.

The lost are judged for their works salvifically. Their sin debt has not been paid. They reject Christ and must pay the debt themselves. There will be degrees of punishment in Hell (it will be better for that day for Sodom and Gomorrah than for one who caused these little ones to stumble) and works will play into that.

But Works do not save us and the full testimony of Paul is in total agreement with that. It is NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast. Paul couldn't get any clearer than that yet in order to maintain the false notion that they can help save themselves Roman Catholics insist on ignoring that testimony and pushing fables.

Christ's salvation was a gift. If we do one thing to contribute to it it isn't a gift any more, it is recompense. That is not what Romans 4:4 says: "Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt."
Oh, a cherry picker too, and not a very careful one. That is a big fat rotten cherry you picked. Look what it says. I'll paraphrase in non-KJV English - Now, for him who works for his salvation, the reward he gets isn't because of grace but because God owes it to him. In other words, It isn't a gift, it is recompense. Romans 4:5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin...16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Also, who obeys the law fully? If you have offended in one point you are guilty of the whole.(James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.) We are all guilty of breaking God's law. God doesn't compromise. Guilty is the verdict. The penalty must be paid. Jesus paid it.

Paul's suffering for the church was not salvific towards them but so that they might hear the gospel and be saved. There were no righteous deeds that Paul did imputed to the account of the church for the church's salvation. Paul suffered as part of the inheritance of Christians who WILL suffer for the faith. Christ, through his body the church, does suffer persecution. Paul was fulfilling that lot in his life as a Christian. Paul was not suffering so that good works could be imputed to someone. None of our works, none of other peoples works, none of the Saints works contribute to declaring us righteous. Rather, the blood of Christ alone cleanses us from all sin and we are declared righteous because of Christ.

Roman Catholicism's view demotes the sacrifice of Christ and substitutes the same old same old (our works merit us something salvific) that all man-made religions foist upon the world. It does not understand the distance between the holiness of God and the righteousness of man. It sees something good in man when Scripture says there is NONE GOOD. It says our righteousness can be meritorious when Scripture says it is filthy rags. It has eyes to see but can not see that the true distance between man's works and God's holiness is the distance of infinity.

In Christ alone I glory. Catholics glory in Jesus, Mary, the Saints, the Popes, the Priests, the Church Fathers, Aunt Mary Elizabeth, and the self. It is another gospel, Jo Kus. Another gospel altogether.
8,253 posted on 01/31/2007 8:45:42 PM PST by Blogger
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