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To: kosta50; annalex; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg
The scripture does not teach presumption. It teaches against it, see the parable of a publican and a pharisee praying.

Not only does it teach against presumption, but its says "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."


The scriptures teach faith.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
And that faith is based upon Whom ... yourself ... or God ?

(Also note that 'works' follow 'faith', and not the other way around.)

Has God begun a great work in you ?

Do you have faith that He will complete what He has begun ?
Philippians 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,

4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,

5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Is the above presumptuous to you ?

8,093 posted on 01/30/2007 8:54:30 AM PST by Quester
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To: Quester; annalex; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg
And that faith is based upon Whom ... yourself ... or God ?

Are we humans or are we robots? God gave us the heart and the mind. We have a choice. He did not compel me.

(Also note that 'works' follow 'faith', and not the other way around)

Are you suggesting the Apostolic Church teaches otherwise?

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Is the above presumptuous to you ?

You know, if you think about it from the Reformed logic, why would +Paul even have bothered to write his Epistles to these churches if it was all a predetermined thing?

The reformed theology claims that true believers would never "fall off" and those who did were never believers to begin with. The reprobate were never among the 'elect,' and it was not their decision, but God's, so what business did +Paul have correcting that which God rejected?

And those who believed that they believed, but turned out to be reprobate, must have presumed that they have faith for an unspecified period of time. And some must, no doubt, continue presuming.

After all, it costs nothing to presume and the rewards may be worth it. Take out 'whatsin-it-for-me" the life-everlasting formula out of the Christian equation and see how many people profess faith in God for His glory alone.

8,121 posted on 01/30/2007 5:26:28 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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