Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Blogger; HarleyD
Scripture does not teach that God foresaw what we would do and chose us on that basis

Repeating it does not make it so. Pelagius was in error, but not on this score. In Matthew 25 Christ explains that the elect are chosen from the foundation of the world but Christ will judge them by their works at the end of times. Hence, the election was based on the foreknowledge of their works.

Bishop Elias Minatios gives several examples where God alters the divine plan based on one's works. They are in the end of his article. Here is one:

I ask you to listen to what God says to Jeremiah the prophet: Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear My words (18:2). The prophet went to the house and found the potter making vessels. A certain pot fell from his hands and became deformed. But, he picked it up and returned it to the form which he desired. Then God spoke to Jeremiah: Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand (18:6). Just as the vessel being made fell was ruined, then being ruined, it was again corrected by the skill of the potter, likewise you, oh man, fall into sin; then, having repented, you are corrected by the grace of God. If you are a vessel of honor, nonetheless, you can become a vessel of dishonor. Likewise, from a vessel of dishonor you can turn back into an honorable vessel. But God continues even further and tells you through the prophet: If (a nation) do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them (18:10). If that nation, against whom I have pronounced (to pull down, and to destroy it), turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them (18:8). See how God changes His decision according to how man changes his disposition?

You offer Romans 9 to buttress your denial of free will. But Romans 9 does not teach that. Verse 16 (and preceding) says that mercy is from God alone. It does not say what divine electionis based on. In the example of clay note that this is the kind of clay that makes the potter "endure it with much patience". The similitude of the potter is echoing Jeremiah, -- se how the bishop is treating it in the quote above. Verse 25, that you also cite, explains that God can elect or unelect people. Neither in that verse does it say upon what God is basing His election. But from other scripture we know, -- He is basing His election of the works of man.

8,019 posted on 01/29/2007 3:54:41 PM PST by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8015 | View Replies ]


To: annalex
Cherry-picking scripture doesn't make it so either.

Annalex you are confusing the cause and the effect of our salvation. That's what it boils down to. We are saved by Christ alone. Nothing else. It is all of Him. Once we have truly been saved, we will then produce good works. If they do not produce good works, then they are not saved. If they do produce good works then they may or may not be saved. Many will come to Jesus in that day and say "have we not done many good works in your name?" But Jesus NEVER knew them. If the good works are meant for any other reason than our love of Jesus, then they are not acceptable. A true Christian will produce good works out of his love for Christ, not that which he hopes to gain from Christ (including salvation- as all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in that regard). So, for review, we are not saved by works - rather we are saved TO work.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

# Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Ephesians 8: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

# 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Matthew 7
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
8,025 posted on 01/29/2007 4:23:36 PM PST by Blogger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8019 | View Replies ]

To: annalex; Blogger
If anyone knew a Pelagian, it was Augustine. He could smell them a mile away.

With all due respect to Bishop Elias Minatios, his view is not grounded in scripture. You cannot become a "vessel of dishonor". God made all the vessels, some for honor and some for dishonor. What Bishop Minatios is trying to say is that you can overrule what God has designed.

But from other scripture we know, -- He is basing His election of the works of man.

Oh, brother. What heresy!!! God now base His salvation on how well someone lives their life. Well, throw out grace and mercy, we certainly don't need that!!!

Personally I would rethink this doctrine.

8,027 posted on 01/29/2007 4:51:37 PM PST by HarleyD (Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt - Lev 19:17)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8019 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson