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To: annalex; HarleyD

So, Scripture does not teach that God foresaw what we would do and chose us on that basis. Such a concept is nonsense and makes God's decisions dependent on creatures who would never choose him outside of His direct intervention.

Your view is unscriptural, as Augustine was pointing out in his arguments against Pelagius. In fact, it is anti-Scriptural "Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

What I do not understand, or maybe I do, is why the aversion to allowing God to be God. He made us. He can do with us as He wishes. If He wishes to show mercy to some of us but not to others, then fine. He is God, He can do so. We are not God. We have no right to tell Him what is acceptable to do.

We do not see man seeking out God first in Scripture. Rather, it is God who goes after man. God chose everyone who would serve Him. He still does. And all that God chooses will come. Christ will not lose any of them.


8,015 posted on 01/29/2007 3:25:21 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger; HarleyD
Scripture does not teach that God foresaw what we would do and chose us on that basis

Repeating it does not make it so. Pelagius was in error, but not on this score. In Matthew 25 Christ explains that the elect are chosen from the foundation of the world but Christ will judge them by their works at the end of times. Hence, the election was based on the foreknowledge of their works.

Bishop Elias Minatios gives several examples where God alters the divine plan based on one's works. They are in the end of his article. Here is one:

I ask you to listen to what God says to Jeremiah the prophet: Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear My words (18:2). The prophet went to the house and found the potter making vessels. A certain pot fell from his hands and became deformed. But, he picked it up and returned it to the form which he desired. Then God spoke to Jeremiah: Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand (18:6). Just as the vessel being made fell was ruined, then being ruined, it was again corrected by the skill of the potter, likewise you, oh man, fall into sin; then, having repented, you are corrected by the grace of God. If you are a vessel of honor, nonetheless, you can become a vessel of dishonor. Likewise, from a vessel of dishonor you can turn back into an honorable vessel. But God continues even further and tells you through the prophet: If (a nation) do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them (18:10). If that nation, against whom I have pronounced (to pull down, and to destroy it), turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them (18:8). See how God changes His decision according to how man changes his disposition?

You offer Romans 9 to buttress your denial of free will. But Romans 9 does not teach that. Verse 16 (and preceding) says that mercy is from God alone. It does not say what divine electionis based on. In the example of clay note that this is the kind of clay that makes the potter "endure it with much patience". The similitude of the potter is echoing Jeremiah, -- se how the bishop is treating it in the quote above. Verse 25, that you also cite, explains that God can elect or unelect people. Neither in that verse does it say upon what God is basing His election. But from other scripture we know, -- He is basing His election of the works of man.

8,019 posted on 01/29/2007 3:54:41 PM PST by annalex
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