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To: Buggman; annalex; kosta50; Agrarian; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; .30Carbine; P-Marlowe; Quix

"Actually, the Apostles went out of their way to keep Jewish Tradition as well as the Torah (cf. Acts 21:20-26)--they just didn't make it a requirement for Gentiles."

Let's assume that what you say is correct. What changed by the late 1st century to cause +Ignatius of Antioch to write in his Letter to the Magnesians:

"It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God."


7,199 posted on 01/21/2007 6:55:59 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; .30Carbine; Quix
[ It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. ]

It would be absurd FOR US TO JUDAIZE... but NOT for the first christians.. Read Galatians.. even after many years it was not absurd..

Even now many christians don't follow the concepts of what is specified in the New Testament so well.. And thats with all mannar of seminaries to decrypt(or spin) both convenants..

The Talmud would confuse a mastermind..

The Apostles (except for Paul) were mostly UNeducated teenagers.. I laugh at people of our age totally ignorant of the conditions of New testament bible times.. Yet judge those folks by standards like they went to High School in the United States and went to Sunday school..

Most of the Apostles were clueless about most of Jesus' metaphors(parables).. In my experience MOST pastors are just as clueless.. Example: the parable of the talents.. is not about talent.. And the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is not a real tree but a metaphor.. As was the Snake and the Tree of Life..

7,202 posted on 01/21/2007 7:41:23 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Kolokotronis; annalex; kosta50; Agrarian; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; .30Carbine; P-Marlowe; Quix
Let's assume that what you say is correct. What changed by the late 1st century . . . ?

70 AD. After their failed rebellion against Rome, the Jews of the Empire were, shall we say, persona non grata, and under heavy persecution. Things only got worse by the time of the Bar Kochba revolt in 135 AD. The Gentile Christians were under enough persecution for refusing to burn incense to idols of Caesar; while they were willing to suffer persecution for the Jewish Messiah, they were not willing to do so for the Jews who had rejected them. Since the Romans identified Jews not by genealogy but by the Sabbath, the Feastdays, etc., the Christians had every reason to read Sha'ul as saying that such things were now not only not required for salvation, but outright verboten.

But while the ECF whose writings have been preserved for us were anti-Torah, we have evidence in their writings that a Torah-observant yet Messiah-believing Jewish remnant still remained, from the perplexed tolerance of Justin Martyr in the second century to the anti-Semitic screed of John Crysostom in the fourth. Indeed, the mere fact that so many of the Fathers found it necessary to write missives condemning keeping the Torah as "Judaizing" tells us that it was a persistent phenomenon through the ante-Nicean church. In the end, it was state-sanctioned persecution, not reasoning from the Scriptures, which drove the Nazarines--the original Messianic Jews--underground and out of the history books.

7,209 posted on 01/21/2007 9:42:07 PM PST by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Kolokotronis; Buggman; annalex; Agrarian; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; .30Carbine; Quix
"It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize." [+Ignatius]

Isn't it rather strange that in mere 70 years after Christ, the Christians (see Didache) were establishing a new religion from what was taught and practised as enlighted Judaism, beginning with Christ himself?

Did Lord Jesus Christ ever say He intended to create a new religion? I think the idea that Christianity is not Judaism comes not from Christ but from +Paul.

7,211 posted on 01/21/2007 9:53:00 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Kolokotronis
"It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. ..."

Wouldn't our consideration of our Lord Savior Christ Jesus returning for a millenial reign reinforce Judaism, while at the same time profess and manifest Christ Jesus?

7,223 posted on 01/22/2007 6:20:03 AM PST by Cvengr
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