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To: Kolokotronis; annalex; kosta50; Agrarian; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; .30Carbine; P-Marlowe; Quix
Let's assume that what you say is correct. What changed by the late 1st century . . . ?

70 AD. After their failed rebellion against Rome, the Jews of the Empire were, shall we say, persona non grata, and under heavy persecution. Things only got worse by the time of the Bar Kochba revolt in 135 AD. The Gentile Christians were under enough persecution for refusing to burn incense to idols of Caesar; while they were willing to suffer persecution for the Jewish Messiah, they were not willing to do so for the Jews who had rejected them. Since the Romans identified Jews not by genealogy but by the Sabbath, the Feastdays, etc., the Christians had every reason to read Sha'ul as saying that such things were now not only not required for salvation, but outright verboten.

But while the ECF whose writings have been preserved for us were anti-Torah, we have evidence in their writings that a Torah-observant yet Messiah-believing Jewish remnant still remained, from the perplexed tolerance of Justin Martyr in the second century to the anti-Semitic screed of John Crysostom in the fourth. Indeed, the mere fact that so many of the Fathers found it necessary to write missives condemning keeping the Torah as "Judaizing" tells us that it was a persistent phenomenon through the ante-Nicean church. In the end, it was state-sanctioned persecution, not reasoning from the Scriptures, which drove the Nazarines--the original Messianic Jews--underground and out of the history books.

7,209 posted on 01/21/2007 9:42:07 PM PST by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman

Great analysis as usual. Thanks.


7,210 posted on 01/21/2007 9:48:20 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman

Thanks for the thoughful, history based reply.

"But while the ECF whose writings have been preserved for us were anti-Torah, we have evidence in their writings that a Torah-observant yet Messiah-believing Jewish remnant still remained, from the perplexed tolerance of Justin Martyr in the second century to the anti-Semitic screed of John Crysostom in the fourth. Indeed, the mere fact that so many of the Fathers found it necessary to write missives condemning keeping the Torah as "Judaizing" tells us that it was a persistent phenomenon through the ante-Nicean church."

This is consistent with what I have been taught over the years by a former Chief Rabbi of Budapest, a 90 year old rabbi who tried manfully to teach me hebrew 35 years ago and a very wise and holy Greek archimandrite down in the old country. By the way, the connection was not only with messianic Jews (not a good one at all), but with "regular" Jews (a much more irenic one), at least well into the 3rd century. The connection was so close that in Sardis, the main church structure was connected to the synagogue by a simple door in the wall. Greek and Antiochian Orthodoxy has always laid great stress on it Jewish "roots", which are most apparent in our liturgical forms and the endless use of the Psalms in our devotions and services. The old chief rabbi regularly remarks to me that when he attends a Greek Orthodox liturgy or service, he feels as if he is at a Temple ceremony.

I won't get into what +John Chrysostomos was sermonizing against save to say it wasn't the Jews, it was the Judaizers which I suspect in his times meant the messianic jews based on what you have said. His sermons seem quite well based in NT scripture, B, though I don't doubt for a minute that given the nature of the Eastern Roman state, the power of that state was behind him with all it meant to those who crossed the state, as +John himself found out.


7,280 posted on 01/22/2007 5:38:32 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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