[blue-duncan]

" no one would have believed Christ is it were not for the martyrs of the Church that gave the Word to the world by dying for their faith."

Kolo, my friend, that is out and out nonsense. Jesus said that if the crowd did not praise Him when He entered Jerusalem then the rocks would. God has a plan for His elect and is causing all things to work together for those that love Him including using martyrdom and life, riches and poverty, power and powerless. It is all of God and He chooses how and in what manner, even Mohammedanism, to preserve His word.

Ultimately, all that He has chosen from the foundation of the world will come to Him. It just so happens that He has chosen trials and even martyrdom to bring His purposes about. It was only by the power of the Holy Spirit that the martyrs had the courage to die for their faith. It was all of God.

[Mad Dawg]

Hypothesis contrary to fact is always an unreliable way to procede. I think what was meant was the martyrs were a major part of the spreading of the Gospel. Does anyone disagree with that? Blood of martyrs = seed of Church, yes?

But I doubt there is anyone on this thread who would dispute that the martyrs got the courage to give their testimony from the Holy Spirit.

[hosepipe]

Wonder how many of those posting on this thread has ever read John Fox's Book of Martyrs..

It is now Googleable.. for FREE...
I suspect not many..

[P-Marlowe]

Kolo, my friend, that is out and out nonsense.

Thanks BD. I was about to say that statements like that make me lean towards becoming a full fledged dyed in the wool John Piper Michael Horton Charles Spurgeon GRPL Calvinist. Then I thought better of it and cancelled the post.

But I agree that Kolo's statement is utter nonsense.

Carry on.

[annalex]

It just so happens that He has chosen trials and even martyrdom to bring His purposes about.

Stop the presses. So it was not the Father demanding sacrifice after all?

It was only by the power of the Holy Spirit that the martyrs had the courage to die for their faith.

No dispute there.

Jesus said that if the crowd did not praise Him when He entered Jerusalem then the rocks would

Before the Passion, yes. He was popular. After the Cross, it was the witness of the saints, not the scripture, that made the world Christian. I can introduce to you any number of assorted non-Christians who read the same scripture you or I do and have not an ounce of belief. Scripture, they've seen. Sanctity, they did not. Then we have your folk who (1) arrogate sainthood to themselves (2) insist on doing nothing to attain holiness (3) riducule the true saints who gave you Christianity as a bunch of dead people. So much for your witness.