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To: blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; wmfights; P-Marlowe; Quix; Forest Keeper; xzins; HarleyD; Gamecock
It just so happens that He has chosen trials and even martyrdom to bring His purposes about.

Stop the presses. So it was not the Father demanding sacrifice after all?

It was only by the power of the Holy Spirit that the martyrs had the courage to die for their faith.

No dispute there.

Jesus said that if the crowd did not praise Him when He entered Jerusalem then the rocks would

Before the Passion, yes. He was popular. After the Cross, it was the witness of the saints, not the scripture, that made the world Christian. I can introduce to you any number of assorted non-Christians who read the same scripture you or I do and have not an ounce of belief. Scripture, they've seen. Sanctity, they did not. Then we have your folk who (1) arrogate sainthood to themselves (2) insist on doing nothing to attain holiness (3) riducule the true saints who gave you Christianity as a bunch of dead people. So much for your witness.

6,395 posted on 01/16/2007 7:21:42 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; Kolokotronis; wmfights; P-Marlowe; Quix; Forest Keeper; xzins; HarleyD; Gamecock
"Stop the presses. So it was not the Father demanding sacrifice after all?"

I don't know what you mean by that statement. Sin demands a sacrifice; love provided it in Jesus. As far as believers are concerned Jesus said, (Jhn 16:33) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." Paul said, (Phl 1:29) "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" Martyrdom is part of the plan.

"Then we have your folk who (1) arrogate sainthood to themselves (2) insist on doing nothing to attain holiness (3) riducule the true saints who gave you Christianity as a bunch of dead people. So much for your witness."

We don't "arrogate" sainthood, Paul, the writer of Hebrews, Jude and John all call all believers saints. What's the problem?

We can't do anything to "attain" holiness. God did that for us in Christ, (Col 1:22) "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:" He tells us to become what we already are in Jesus, but that is not "attaining" but living out what we already are.

I haven't seen anyone here ridiculing God or the Apostles. What I have seen is a realistic portrayal, according to the scriptures, of the men Jesus called to be with Him.
6,415 posted on 01/16/2007 7:57:22 PM PST by blue-duncan
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