[Kolokotronis]

" Quite beside the role of the Church in creating and sorting out the scripture, no one would have believed Christ is it were not for the martyrs of the Church that gave the Word to the world by dying for their faith. It was not an intellectual exercise then; it is not an intellectual exercise now.

I can tell you what Christianity would have been without the witness of the saints of the Church: an intriguing but largely unworkable ethical system taught by a lunatic, whose followers had a large imagination. We'd pay more attention to Seneca than to Christ if He chose to leave us with the scripture alone."

What a marvelous observation, Alex! Indeed, it is not at all an intellectual exercise, though our discussions here may make it look that way. It is an all consuming way to live which sets the parameters of how we react to quite literally everything in life. Personally, I don't think that religion plays that sort of role in the broader Western society. Just as an example, if it did, the West would understand what it is up against with Mohammedanism which is similarly all consuming of its adherents' lives.

[blue-duncan]

" no one would have believed Christ is it were not for the martyrs of the Church that gave the Word to the world by dying for their faith."

Kolo, my friend, that is out and out nonsense. Jesus said that if the crowd did not praise Him when He entered Jerusalem then the rocks would. God has a plan for His elect and is causing all things to work together for those that love Him including using martyrdom and life, riches and poverty, power and powerless. It is all of God and He chooses how and in what manner, even Mohammedanism, to preserve His word.

Ultimately, all that He has chosen from the foundation of the world will come to Him. It just so happens that He has chosen trials and even martyrdom to bring His purposes about. It was only by the power of the Holy Spirit that the martyrs had the courage to die for their faith. It was all of God.