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To: annalex; Kolokotronis; Blogger; kosta50
How did I do, Blogger and FK?

Pretty good, I'd say. I can tell you are trying to be fair and I appreciate that. :) I agree with the substance of Blogger's response, so basically my only addition is in regard to:

"Saved" here means a one time sincere commitment, like what we read in the gospel occurring in adult converts at the time of their adult baptism. Baptism is a visible manifestation of such committed faith.

It is reasonable for you to say this, but I would have to disagree on (perhaps hyper-) technical grounds. :) As a Reformed Baptist, of course I am uncomfortable making any comparison between saying the sinner's prayer and adult baptism. (You are spot on in that we see baptism as a manifestation of faith, it is an obedience to God, one done from free will.) I guess what has me squirming a little bit is that when I read what you wrote I think to myself that the view being expressed is that before the sinner's prayer, one is not of the elect, but after saying the prayer, THEN one is of the elect. Is this what you were thinking? (If I'm misreading this, then it's on me, not you. :)

While we're at it, what is the Catholic view of the moment within time when a person becomes one of the elect? We would say from before all creation. If one has the view that God looked ahead in time to see who would choose Him, then "within time" the actual "effective" election would happen at perhaps the person's baptism, or at belief, or at his confirmation, or at the end of his life with clean confession and Last Rights, etc. (It is my understanding that in Catholicism, one's ultimate destiny cannot change after physical death. If correct, we agree with this.)

The commentary I read here and elsewhere about "pecca fortiter" was that is was a vivid illustration of the doctrine of security of salvation rather than a practical lifestyle advice.

YES, thank you for even suggesting the possibility that Luther was not actually advocating running around and sinning at will. :) You are most kind, and I mean that sincerely. He was making a perspective comparison to show the finality of the Atonement (just like you said). We all know that Luther fretted tremendously about his own sins, so it is not possible that he was literally advocating sinning. He was making a point. By our standards today, perhaps it sounds clumsy, but what was really in his heart was consistent with the rest of his teachings, right or wrong. He was no supporter of sin. :)

5,001 posted on 01/11/2007 2:37:25 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; Blogger; kosta50
before the sinner's prayer, one is not of the elect, but after saying the prayer, THEN one is of the elect

I think that the Protestant belief would be that one is elect before the foundation of the world. This is also scripturally correct (Mt. 25). The Protestant belief stemming fron this one is wrong: the notion that "saved" is a one time event in the life of man. It is not: one has been saved by the sacrifice of Christ, continues to be saved by working on his faith through his life time, and hopefully but not surely will end up saved at the end of his life in the Particular Judgement. With fear and trembling work out your salvation for it is God working in you.

He was making a point

That I realize; but the "point", the false doctrine of surety of salvation, objectively encourages cavalier attitude about sin.

5,048 posted on 01/11/2007 7:44:36 AM PST by annalex
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