I think that the Protestant belief would be that one is elect before the foundation of the world. This is also scripturally correct (Mt. 25). The Protestant belief stemming fron this one is wrong: the notion that "saved" is a one time event in the life of man. It is not: one has been saved by the sacrifice of Christ, continues to be saved by working on his faith through his life time, and hopefully but not surely will end up saved at the end of his life in the Particular Judgement. With fear and trembling work out your salvation for it is God working in you.
He was making a point
That I realize; but the "point", the false doctrine of surety of salvation, objectively encourages cavalier attitude about sin.
You are correct as to the timing of election. It is before the foundation of the world. Not after the sinner prays.
"The Protestant belief stemming fron this one is wrong: the notion that "saved" is a one time event in the life of man. It is not: one has been saved by the sacrifice of Christ, continues to be saved by working on his faith through his life time, and hopefully but not surely will end up saved at the end of his life in the Particular Judgement."
Sort of an interesting way to put it, A. From an Orthodox perspective, "saved", I suppose, means "theosis", which is a state of union with the uncreated energies of God. Christ's death and resurrection destroyed the power which death formerly held over all of us; in effect, restoring to us the potential to attain, only through God's grace, the "Likness of God" we were originally created for. But being descendant's of Adam and having a nature corrupted by Ancestral Sin, there 's no guarantee that we will ever rise above that corrupt nature, but we now can (but may not) respond to God's grace in a way which will transform us ultimately to both the image and likeness of God. The way we live our lives should be moving towards that similitude with Christ. You know, sometimes that old Protestant saw, "What would Jesus do?" is really right on the money. +Anthony the Great, maybe the greatest of the Desert Fathers wrote:
"Leading the repentant man to undertake spiritual work, the Holy Spirit, Who called him to repentance, also grants him His comforts and teaches him not to turn back nor be attached to anything of this world. To this end, He opens the eyes of the soul and gives her to see the beauty of the purity reached through the works of repentance. In this way He kindles in it zeal for complete purification both of itself and of the body, that the two may be one in purity. For this is the aim of the teaching and guidance of the Holy Spirit - to purify them completely and bring them back to their original state, in which they were before the Fall, by destroying in them all adulterations introduced by the devil's envy, so that nothing of the enemy should remain therein. Then the body will become obedient to the dictates of the mind in all things, and the mind will masterfully determine its food and drink, its sleep and its every other action, constantly learning from the Holy Spirit to "keep under" the "body, and bring it into subjection" (I Corinthians 9:27) as did Apostle Paul."
+Symeon the New Theologian puts it this way:
"'Can a man take fire into his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?' (Prov. 6:27) says the wise Solomon. And I say: can he, who has in his heart the Divine fire of the Holy Spirit burning naked, not be set on fire, not shine and glitter and not take on the radiance of the Deity in the degree of his purification and penetration by fire? For penetration by fire follows upon purification of the heart, and again purification of the heart follows upon penetration by fire, that is, inasmuch as the heart is purified, so it receives Divine grace, and again inasmuch as it receives grace, so it is purified. When this is completed (that is, purification of heart and acquisition of grace have attained their fullness and perfection), through grace a man becomes wholly a god."
Its a process of purification wrought by the Holy Spirit. But it is a process which can be stopped by the exercise of man's free will contrary to God's Commandments. You've all seen the icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent with its monks and hierarchs falling off into the Pit. If the Holy Spirit leaves, well, that's trouble. +Nil Sorsky taught:
"The Holy Spirit often visits us; but if He does not find rest how can He remain? He departs. Joy is in the hearts of those who are cleansed and who are able to maintain within themselves the grace of the Holy Spirit of the All-holy Trinity. There is no greater joy and happiness for man. I am not able to describe to you how one feels then."
I think that the Protestant belief would be that one is elect before the foundation of the world. This is also scripturally correct (Mt. 25).
ALEX! I write you a nice, friendly post, and this is what I get??? :) To be clear for EVERYONE, let us review what I actually said in 5,001:
I guess what has me squirming a little bit is that when I read what you wrote I think to myself that the view being expressed is that before the sinner's prayer, one is not of the elect, but after saying the prayer, THEN one is of the elect. Is this what you were thinking? (emphasis added)
I followed up with:
While we're at it, what is the Catholic view of the moment within time when a person becomes one of the elect? We would say from before all creation.
Do you think you were fairly representing what I was saying here??? It's fine if you don't want to answer my questions, but come on! :)
The Protestant belief stemming from this one is wrong: the notion that "saved" is a one time event in the life of man. It is not: one has been saved by the sacrifice of Christ, continues to be saved by working on his faith through his life time, and hopefully but not surely will end up saved at the end of his life in the Particular Judgment.(emphasis added)
I agree with everything I underlined. POTS is the difference between knowing it and wishing for it. If we are both Christians then we wind up in the same place, IMO.
That I realize; but the "point", the false doctrine of surety of salvation, objectively encourages cavalier attitude about sin.
Really? How do you know that? Do you know of Reformers who cry in the town square "Once Saved Always Saved" and then go out and lead a life of total depravity? I have never heard of this happening, even once. That's because it isn't taught. For anyone to be doctrinally aware of OSAS, or POTS, it is almost always the case that they are also aware of the further teaching that scripture through Paul SPECIFICALLY REJECTS the attitude you are concerned about. "BY NO MEANS" says Paul over and over. You have to take into account the complete teaching, not just that HALF of it "sounds" bad.