Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: annalex
They take it correctly as a prediction of eating His body in the physical sense, get appalled and leave.
This is simply non-biblical. Read the whole chapter in context. The text gives the real reason that they left.

34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.... 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Skipping ahead a little. Jesus makes the statement which you and the Catholic church tend to cherry-pick.
48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

To which the Jews replied ", How can this man give us his flesh to eat? " But notice, they didn't leave yet.

59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Then Jesus says, 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Now,Annalex,NOW you have folks leaving. 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Why? Not because they were disgusted by the thought of eating Christ's body and drinking His blood literally, but because they didn't believe that He descended from Heaven period. They were along for the ride but were still in disbelief for who Jesus was. This understanding of the passage is confirmed by Peter's own response to Jesus' question as follows:

67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


The disciples that left did so because they did not believe or have faith that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God - not because they were repulsed at the thought of drinking His blood and eating His flesh.

Christ offered one sacrifice for sin and there remains no more
That is correct (check Hebrews).
I was quoting Hebrews.

This one and only sacrifice occurs every mass though.
This assertion is taught NOWHERE in scripture and is contradicted by Hebrews.

works do not save you

This is extrascriptural spin. Read James 2.

Read the entire book of Romans, the entire book of Galatians, the entire New Testament and then compare James with that. CONTEXT, sir. CONTEXT. It isn't spin. It is a direct quote.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

# 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

# Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

# Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Annalex, The works is the EVIDENCE of salvation, but they do not save. See James.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


If one is truly saved, works will follow for we are HIS Masterpiece, created for good works (Ephesians 2:10). However, if one says he has faith but has no works, that faith is dead. It's empty. It's void. It isn't a true faith that saves. That's James' entire point.

If I were a Catholic but did not participate in mass, ever. I didn't like the thought of eating Christ's body and drinking his blood. What would become of my soul when I died?

Your soul would then be in great peril because you would have wilfully rejected Christ:

In other words, if I don't "do" some physical work, then I don't get to go to heaven. Then salvation is not a gift. It is a merit. Such belief is another gospel than that once delivered to the Saints.


1 Corinthians 15

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
3,767 posted on 01/03/2007 9:56:33 PM PST by Blogger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3762 | View Replies ]


To: Blogger
The disciples that left did so because they did not believe or have faith that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God - not because they were repulsed at the thought of drinking His blood and eating His flesh.

It is true that they left after they received the entire explanation of the Real Presence, and that included the fact the Jesus is the Christ. But their initial objection was to the offer of His flesh in the literal sense; the explanation Jesus gave confirmed the literal sense.

Read the entire book of Romans, the entire book of Galatians, the entire New Testament and then compare James with that.

I have. The Church has. She wrote all these books. You are left to assert that James did not mean it when he said "by works a man is justified; and not by faith only", or Jesus in Mathew 25 does not mean it when He lists charitable work as the criterion by which sheep are separated from goats, or that Christ doies not mean it in Apocalipse when He said "I .. judge everyone according to his works", or again, Jesus did not mean to say, in John 6, "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you do not have life in you". The references to works that are not salvific are works of obligation, or works of vanity, or works for reward, or works of Jewish ceremonial law. There is never a characterisation of works of love (=charity) as not salvific; to the contrary, love is set forth as the greates virtue and exhortations are made in every book to do them. The reference to the works being in plain evidence, as opposed to faith being an inward quality are meant to explain that one is impossible without the other; James never says that works are a mere outcome of faith, as the protestant spin suggests.

This assertion [that mass is a presentation across time of one sacrifice of Christ] is taught NOWHERE in scripture

"This is my body; do it in memorial of me" is in every synoptic gospel.

Then salvation is not a gift. It is a merit.

You do not die on the Cross to make the Eucharist possible. Christ did. To freely do what He asks is not a merit in the sense of commanding God to save you; the sovereignty of God does not suffer because of the salvific character of certain works. Is there a merit in acts of piety? -- definitely. But God remains sovereign through this, and your objection vanishes.

3,891 posted on 01/04/2007 12:15:24 PM PST by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3767 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson