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To: jo kus

What a way to start my morning! Nothing like being called a heretic before you even get out the gate! Noone can say that Christ is Lord except by the Spirit of God. Jesus is my Savior and my Lord. Do not call me cursed.

I reject that Christ sent many of the people that have lead the Catholic church (or many Protestant denominations). A quick study of history and the Popes would back me up.

The church is made up of human beings. Human beings are fallible. The early church certainly was or we wouldn't have gotten all of those letters from Paul and others correcting their theology. John would have no need to write to the 7 churches in Asia because they would have all been right on the same page with Christ. They weren't.

You are deifying the church. The church is NOT Christ. The true church, the body of ALL believers from all times, is the Bride of Christ. Insofar as she follows His lead, she is to be trusted. When she walks away from what He has laid forward through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Scripture, she is no better than a human institution and is sometimes quite a bit worse.



2,095 posted on 12/19/2006 5:19:01 AM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger
What a way to start my morning! Nothing like being called a heretic before you even get out the gate! Noone can say that Christ is Lord except by the Spirit of God. Jesus is my Savior and my Lord. Do not call me cursed.

Yes, and many will say "'Lord, Lord" and will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven... Are you doing the will of the Father by your continued rejection of Christ's apostles?

I reject that Christ sent many of the people that have lead the Catholic church (or many Protestant denominations). A quick study of history and the Popes would back me up.

Oh, so you also reject the ORIGINAL twelve apostles, as well. A quick study of the history of their actions would show they were not perfect, either. What you fail to understand is that God does not choose perfect people, nor does God remove all of their quirks. God works through clay vessels, whether they were Saul, King Cyrus, Paul, Peter, St. Francis of Assisi, or Pope Alexander III.

The church is made up of human beings. Human beings are fallible. The early church certainly was or we wouldn't have gotten all of those letters from Paul and others correcting their theology. John would have no need to write to the 7 churches in Asia because they would have all been right on the same page with Christ. They weren't.

Of course people make mistakes. But God also assured His Church, the visible community that He established, that its authority would bind other Christians. The Apostles were given the power to bind and loosen, a power given from above. Now, you can believe that the Apostles made that all up - I have argued over this with atheists - but then you would be ignoring Scriptures. Thus, when Christ said that "what is bound on earth would be bound in heaven", Christ is assuring that authoritative decisions would be infallible. Unless you believe that heaven makes mistakes.

You are deifying the church. The church is NOT Christ. The true church, the body of ALL believers from all times, is the Bride of Christ. Insofar as she follows His lead, she is to be trusted. When she walks away from what He has laid forward through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Scripture, she is no better than a human institution and is sometimes quite a bit worse.

In the sense you are speaking of, I am not deifying the Church. Yes, the Church IS the Body of Christ - and IS divine as well as human (so was Christ). But I don't deify the leaders of the Church. I honor them and obey them because that is God's will. Trust me. I am a non-conformist. But when I come to the conclusion that God's will be that we obey the leaders of the Church (as Scripture tells us), then I obey. THAT is the will of God. God expects us to be like Christ - to be humble and obedient. I will continue to follow that example and the example of His mother Mary.

Now, you claim the Church "walks away from what is laid forth in Scripture". YOU have walked away from the Church's understanding of the Sacred Scriptures. It is the Church that has given us the Scriptures and the Church that interprets them through a particular paradigm. You think that is something new? Read up on St. Irenaeus. He also contended with men who thought they knew better then the Church. They presented men with their own perverted teachings of the very same writings of the Apostles. The difference was not the Scriptures, but interpetation of Scriptures. Thus, St. Irenaeus made it clear that only the Church could give the proper understanding of these Scriptures. He was writing in 180 AD. You see, heresy is nothing new. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't have said "he who rejects YOU rejects me"...

Regards

2,099 posted on 12/19/2006 5:41:55 AM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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