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To: Blogger
What a way to start my morning! Nothing like being called a heretic before you even get out the gate! Noone can say that Christ is Lord except by the Spirit of God. Jesus is my Savior and my Lord. Do not call me cursed.

Yes, and many will say "'Lord, Lord" and will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven... Are you doing the will of the Father by your continued rejection of Christ's apostles?

I reject that Christ sent many of the people that have lead the Catholic church (or many Protestant denominations). A quick study of history and the Popes would back me up.

Oh, so you also reject the ORIGINAL twelve apostles, as well. A quick study of the history of their actions would show they were not perfect, either. What you fail to understand is that God does not choose perfect people, nor does God remove all of their quirks. God works through clay vessels, whether they were Saul, King Cyrus, Paul, Peter, St. Francis of Assisi, or Pope Alexander III.

The church is made up of human beings. Human beings are fallible. The early church certainly was or we wouldn't have gotten all of those letters from Paul and others correcting their theology. John would have no need to write to the 7 churches in Asia because they would have all been right on the same page with Christ. They weren't.

Of course people make mistakes. But God also assured His Church, the visible community that He established, that its authority would bind other Christians. The Apostles were given the power to bind and loosen, a power given from above. Now, you can believe that the Apostles made that all up - I have argued over this with atheists - but then you would be ignoring Scriptures. Thus, when Christ said that "what is bound on earth would be bound in heaven", Christ is assuring that authoritative decisions would be infallible. Unless you believe that heaven makes mistakes.

You are deifying the church. The church is NOT Christ. The true church, the body of ALL believers from all times, is the Bride of Christ. Insofar as she follows His lead, she is to be trusted. When she walks away from what He has laid forward through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Scripture, she is no better than a human institution and is sometimes quite a bit worse.

In the sense you are speaking of, I am not deifying the Church. Yes, the Church IS the Body of Christ - and IS divine as well as human (so was Christ). But I don't deify the leaders of the Church. I honor them and obey them because that is God's will. Trust me. I am a non-conformist. But when I come to the conclusion that God's will be that we obey the leaders of the Church (as Scripture tells us), then I obey. THAT is the will of God. God expects us to be like Christ - to be humble and obedient. I will continue to follow that example and the example of His mother Mary.

Now, you claim the Church "walks away from what is laid forth in Scripture". YOU have walked away from the Church's understanding of the Sacred Scriptures. It is the Church that has given us the Scriptures and the Church that interprets them through a particular paradigm. You think that is something new? Read up on St. Irenaeus. He also contended with men who thought they knew better then the Church. They presented men with their own perverted teachings of the very same writings of the Apostles. The difference was not the Scriptures, but interpetation of Scriptures. Thus, St. Irenaeus made it clear that only the Church could give the proper understanding of these Scriptures. He was writing in 180 AD. You see, heresy is nothing new. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't have said "he who rejects YOU rejects me"...

Regards

2,099 posted on 12/19/2006 5:41:55 AM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus
My answers stand.

You know something I have noticed.

Over and over and over again, I've now been called a heretic and attacked personally for my beliefs. What I have said has been mischaracterized and otherwise ignorred in a rabid desire to protect the Roman Catholic Organization.

I reject Popes who were serial fornicators and orgie participants - and I'm accused of rejecting the apostles.

I reject an institution that calls me Anathema and condemns me to Hell in one century and calls me a seperated brother (or sister) in another. And am condemned because I don't support the idea that these are people Christ sent to lead the church.

I reject an institution that says there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic church and then turns around and says: "The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize." The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." (VII)

I reject an institution that conforms its theology to Charles Darwin, rather than looking at Charles Darwin through God's Word.

I reject an institution that says ""The Holy Father explained the Holy Spirit is mysteriously present in the heart of every person through the practice of what is good in their own religious traditions, and following the dictates of their consciences, members of other religions positively respond to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even though they may not recognize Him as their Savior."

I reject an organization whose Popes make the following contradictory statements: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." Innocent III

"Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins... Boniface VIII

"It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart 'into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. Eugene IV

"It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart 'into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. Vatican II

“Buddhism is a religion of salvation.” - John Paul II

"The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. ...it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."

"Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ."

"The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation."

"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."

"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is 'the all-embracing means of salvation,' that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God." Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio" 1964



“Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.” -Joseph Ratzinger

“The new text describes the relationship between the Church and non-Catholic Christians without speaking of ‘membership.’ By shedding this terminological armor, the text acquired a much wider scope… The Catholic has to recognize that his own Church is not yet prepared to accept the phenomenon of multiplicity in unity; he must orient himself toward this reality… Meantime the Catholic Church has no right to absorb other Churches.” - Joseph Ratzinger (note, the phrase non-Catholic Christians)



And who can forget this beauty:
Pope John Paul II Kissing a Koran.

Coupled with the current Pope's prayer towards Mecca (Oh, I'm sorry, moment of meditation), gee, we have an institution here that we can really be confident in. And I'M called heretic.

Come out of Babylon folks. The water is good on the other side.
2,109 posted on 12/19/2006 7:17:36 AM PST by Blogger
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To: jo kus; Blogger
Well said. What you say in #2099 is precisely what most Protestants do not seem to understand. They think that since they obviously can't believe that the Apostles's successors are always and everywhere infallible, therefore each person must always trust his own personal private interpretation of his own personal private Bible. And that is the deadly false dilemma that has divided and is continually dividing Christians all over the world.

-A8

2,114 posted on 12/19/2006 7:26:53 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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