That is the Protestant view. :(
Where does that come from? God is actively involved with the necessary perseverance of His elect every single day. And it is HIM doing the work, not us.
FK: "When God created satan, he was not evil, but became evil later on his own."
Against God's will?
The term "God's will" can be used in two ways. One is that if God wills something, He causes it. Another is that He allows it as part of His plan. In this case it was the latter. God, as satan's creator, could have prevented him from falling, but He didn't. Since God is no respecter of men (or angels) then it must have been part of His plan. God wanted our experience on this earth to be exactly as it is, and has been, and will be.
Reformed denial of free will is what makes any independence impossible. Even if this "independence" is based on God's permission it still depends on His will. Now, that which depends on another factor is not independent.
Imagine that my 17 y.o. son comes to me with big plans to do a thing. In my experience I know that it would be a huge mistake and tell him so. He remains adamant, but I retain the power to say "no". However, my own plan is to let him do it anyway, on the theory that it would be better for him to learn a cheap lesson now, rather than make the same mistake later and have it be much more expensive. He goes and does the thing and fails horribly. Now, did he do the thing independently, or do you pin responsibility on me just because I could have stopped it? If the latter, then you are forced to also believe that either God is not in control of His creation, or that every bad thing that happens in the world is at least partly God's fault.
So, God is involved in our evil as well, and therefore evil does not exist independently.
God is only involved if you place a duty on Him to prevent. I don't.
God respects our decisions, by permission. He wills that we make free decisions and He will honor them.
OK, if God is a respecter of men, then God is not in control of His creation. I assume that you would say that it was by God's choice to release control to men. This again makes God a mere scribe in terms of His plan. He just writes down what men do, and then declares that as His plan.
FK: "James 1:13 tells us that God does not tempt, so that only leaves satan as an independent tempter."
And the Lord's Prayer says "do not leads us into temptation..." If God doesn't tempt, then why ask Him not to lead us into temptation?
I believe that line is in the spirit of:
1 Cor 10:13 : 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
God does not tempt us, but He does allow us to be tempted. In any event, in the big picture it also serves as a reminder, just like much of the rest of the prayer. To wit: "thy Kingdom come" - does anyone think His Kingdom won't come?, "thy will be done" - does anyone think His will won't be done?, "forgive us our trespasses" - does any believer think He won't forgive?, "lead us not into temptation" - does any believer think He WILL lead us into temptation?
The idea that the devil is somehow an "independent," rival, to God comes from pagan Zotroastrianism which infiltrated Jewish beliefs during the Babylonian captivity and introduced divine "dualism."
satan doesn't merit the term "rival". He is a bug next to God, but he is directly opposed to God.
Christ never taught there was going to be a 'final battle" or that we are "at war," but simply his judgment.
Well, Jesus clearly speaks of the Apocalypse, and you don't believe the parts of the Bible that speak of the battle between God and satan. So, I guess that's all we can say. :)
FK: "What are you implying? Is it that Paul was wrong and "armor of God" is not how God wants us to think about it?"
I have no idea what he means. If he means the faith in God and trust in Him, then why not just call it that? ...
He gave us that metaphor to say just that. The armor is actually God, not our own abilities to buck up and resist. We put on objects that are not of us, just as we trust in God instead of ourselves. This also goes right with my earlier 1 Cor. quote. God provides a way out, etc. Here it is.
Kosta: That is the Protestant view. :(
FK: Where does that come from? God is actively involved with the necessary perseverance of His elect every single day. And it is HIM doing the work, not us
That's my point: lay back and enjoy the ride. Easy. Comfy. Let God do all the work...we can play and do whatever, sin all you want, all our sins are already forgiven...like a bunch of spoiled brats.
Why does God need to do "maintenance" on His elect, FK? Did He not predestine everything, or does He have to micromanage too, so the "poor" babies can persevere (even though the little premadonnas will persevere regardless because they have already been "saved")?
Since God is no respecter of men (or angels) then it must have been part of His plan
Where does it say "of angles?" Angels are obligatory God's servants; they are not free.
However, my own plan is to let him do it anyway, on the theory that it would be better for him to learn a cheap lesson now, rather than make the same mistake later and have it be much more expensive
That's not comparable. There was nothing "less expensive" having Christ suffer for all of us over something that could have been prevented. Why did Adam and Eve have to "learn" their lesson? Why not just makes them "smart" enough? Is this why mankind has to endure evil of its own making?
Now, did he do the thing independently, or do you pin responsibility on me just because I could have stopped it?
On you, because not only could you have stopped it, but you also foreknew what would happen, and you created conditions that made it inevitable for him to fail -- and die. If God does everything, as you mention above, all "credit" goes to God!
God is only involved if you place a duty on Him to prevent. I don't
No one can impose anything on God. God only offers good. You don't have to take it.
OK, if God is a respecter of men
If the Bible means anything to you, then He is, because the Bible says he is on more than on occasion (but I see why you would not want to "see" those verses).
I assume that you would say that it was by God's choice to release control to men.
He gave us limited freedom, and dominion over all animals on earth. That's not releasing His sovereignty. He merely designated our "playground," and defined limits. Within those limits we are free to accept His blessings or to reject them. That's all.
"lead us not into temptation" - does any believer think He WILL lead us into temptation?
Why mention it then?
satan doesn't merit the term "rival". He is a bug next to God, but he is directly opposed to God
So, if he is a "bug" why is there so much evil int he world? Seems like this may be a lot bigger bug then you think.
Well, Jesus clearly speaks of the Apocalypse, and you don't believe the parts of the Bible that speak of the battle between God and satan
How can a "bug" be involved in a battle with God. It's like a queen ant blocking your way during a stroll!