Kosta: That is the Protestant view. :(
FK: Where does that come from? God is actively involved with the necessary perseverance of His elect every single day. And it is HIM doing the work, not us
That's my point: lay back and enjoy the ride. Easy. Comfy. Let God do all the work...we can play and do whatever, sin all you want, all our sins are already forgiven...like a bunch of spoiled brats.
Why does God need to do "maintenance" on His elect, FK? Did He not predestine everything, or does He have to micromanage too, so the "poor" babies can persevere (even though the little premadonnas will persevere regardless because they have already been "saved")?
Since God is no respecter of men (or angels) then it must have been part of His plan
Where does it say "of angles?" Angels are obligatory God's servants; they are not free.
However, my own plan is to let him do it anyway, on the theory that it would be better for him to learn a cheap lesson now, rather than make the same mistake later and have it be much more expensive
That's not comparable. There was nothing "less expensive" having Christ suffer for all of us over something that could have been prevented. Why did Adam and Eve have to "learn" their lesson? Why not just makes them "smart" enough? Is this why mankind has to endure evil of its own making?
Now, did he do the thing independently, or do you pin responsibility on me just because I could have stopped it?
On you, because not only could you have stopped it, but you also foreknew what would happen, and you created conditions that made it inevitable for him to fail -- and die. If God does everything, as you mention above, all "credit" goes to God!
God is only involved if you place a duty on Him to prevent. I don't
No one can impose anything on God. God only offers good. You don't have to take it.
OK, if God is a respecter of men
If the Bible means anything to you, then He is, because the Bible says he is on more than on occasion (but I see why you would not want to "see" those verses).
I assume that you would say that it was by God's choice to release control to men.
He gave us limited freedom, and dominion over all animals on earth. That's not releasing His sovereignty. He merely designated our "playground," and defined limits. Within those limits we are free to accept His blessings or to reject them. That's all.
"lead us not into temptation" - does any believer think He WILL lead us into temptation?
Why mention it then?
satan doesn't merit the term "rival". He is a bug next to God, but he is directly opposed to God
So, if he is a "bug" why is there so much evil int he world? Seems like this may be a lot bigger bug then you think.
Well, Jesus clearly speaks of the Apocalypse, and you don't believe the parts of the Bible that speak of the battle between God and satan
How can a "bug" be involved in a battle with God. It's like a queen ant blocking your way during a stroll!
That's my point: lay back and enjoy the ride. Easy. Comfy. Let God do all the work...we can play and do whatever, sin all you want, all our sins are already forgiven...like a bunch of spoiled brats.
If it worked like that, then it wouldn't be perseverance, would it. Jesus says that His burden is light, so that means that perseverance DOES take "perceived" effort on our part. All I'm saying is that when I do a good thing, when I really don't feel like doing it, it "feels" like work to me, but it is really God working through me.
Why does God need to do "maintenance" on His elect, FK? Did He not predestine everything, or does He have to micromanage too, so the "poor" babies can persevere (even though the little premadonnas will persevere regardless because they have already been "saved")?
We need maintenance because the system God set up has us ever growing closer to Him. If it all happened in a minute then our existence would be very different on earth. Only God knows why He chose as He did. He wanted us to live in confidence of our salvation, and realize that we still have much to learn. Only God who began a good work in us can complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.
FK: "Since God is no respecter of men (or angels) then it must have been part of His plan."
Where does it say "of angles?" Angels are obligatory God's servants; they are not free.
Yes, that is what I was attempting to say. Just as man is not free to thwart God's plan, neither are angels. So, when satan fell, God did not say "Oh NO, that ruins everything!"
Why did Adam and Eve have to "learn" their lesson? Why not just makes them "smart" enough? Is this why mankind has to endure evil of its own making?
I don't know! :) All I can do is observe that this is the way God wanted it, and it is therefore good. Somehow, it is good that man suffer from his sins. One possibility is that we learn from that suffering.
FK: "Now, did he do the thing independently, or do you pin responsibility on me just because I could have stopped it?"
On you, because not only could you have stopped it, but you also foreknew what would happen, and you created conditions that made it inevitable for him to fail -- and die. If God does everything, as you mention above, all "credit" goes to God!
How did I create the conditions? I didn't suggest it, in fact I argued against it. They only thing of relevance is that I did not put my foot down and stop it. That is not the same as creating the conditions. I did it in order to prevent him from making the same mistake later, in which case he WOULD die. So, the idea is that by allowing it now, it saves his life. I think it is possible that this happens with God.
FK: ... "lead us not into temptation" - does any believer think He WILL lead us into temptation?
Why mention it then?
As a reminder, the same as with the other examples I gave from the Lord's Prayer. The Bible does a lot of reminding. We need it. :)
So, if [satan] is a "bug" why is there so much evil in the world? Seems like this may be a lot bigger bug then you think.
Oh, I agree that we should never underestimate him. Next to us he is very powerful. I just want to be on the record as NOT thinking that satan is some sort of "counter-God". satan has no ability to triumph over the one and only true God.
How can a "bug" be involved in a battle with God. It's like a queen ant blocking your way during a stroll!
To God it might be just like that. :) But, for however many people get to see it, I would imagine it will be quite a large spectacle. :)