The Binle uses faith and hope in a very clear and concise manner, calling one the [inseparable] substance of the other.
So, when people worship in faith means they worship in hope. And, again, what is that hope? Life everlasting with God, as I said in my previous post. Take out that hope and people have nothing to have faith in and nothing to hope for!
So, being faithful is very much tied to getting and what's-in-it-for-me, and a lot less about worshiping God just because He is great. Take out the promise and see how many people come to church.
Maybe some people do, but I do not go to church to strengthen my "wish for" that God loves me or will keep His promises.
But you are not taking out the promise. To you faith is not "things hoped for," as the Bible says, but a bank check, sure to be cashed in. So, now that you are "sure" you are covered, there is no 'hope," but (unbiblical) certainty.
If the world suddenly came to an understanding that salvation is not had by going to church, then I would still go to church. Is this what you are talking about?
No, if the world came to an understanding that there is no salvation not matter what. It would make your faith an oxymoron, since you are saved by faith alone! Take out salvation, then what is faith?! If we have no hope or knowledge of a benefit to us by believing that God will deliver us, prayer and worship become meaningless.
It's not enough to just know God or something else created this world; we want that something to take care of us -- forever! Otherwise, God is just a Big Bang, cold and unapproachable. There is nothing to "believe in." So, who would go to church? Forest Keeper? To worship a Big Bang?
The central figure in our faith is the Savior! Deliverer. Rescuer. If people stranded in Texas floods did not believe rescue was coming to prevent them from drowning, you think they would be sitting on the roof hoping, believing the rescue is coming, and thanking God for sending them?
Our relationship with God is made in expectation, indeed guarantee in your case, that God will rescue you or has rescued you and that you shall live. No one worships God for just being God, FK. People are not that altruistic, even if they can convince themselves otherwise.
Well, you do not address the distinction I made, but if taken in "my" light, I can agree with what you say here. However, I'm afraid I still do not understand where you are trying to go. Sure, if you take away "hope" (whatever it means) then faith withers. AND, ..... ? :) Is it that people won't go to church? If so, then I don't understand the profundity because WHO WOULD go to church who has no hope?
So, being faithful is very much tied to getting and what's-in-it-for-me, and a lot less about worshiping God just because He is great. Take out the promise and see how many people come to church.
Is this the answer to my above? If so, I could not disagree more. We are God's servants. We serve, He provides. He loves us, we love Him. Maybe our differing view points are directly related to the surety that my side has, and the state of flux that the Apostolics are constantly in. Now that I think of it, I CAN understand how Apostolics would go to church in order to get something. For you all, salvation is based on human performance, which includes going to church and taking the sacraments, etc. So, for an Apostolic, he had better go to church to further his resume for Heaven.
"If" I'm on the right track, then I suppose I had such a difficult time understanding you because this idea is so alien to me. When I go to church the last thing on my mind is earning points toward salvation. The salvation part is already done and over with. All that's left is the living out of the rest of my life. In theory, that should always be in service to God. Part of that is going to church, part of that is prayer, part of that is following the Commandments, etc. When God changed me, He made me WANT to do those things for the first time. So, it isn't "work" (most of the time :).
But you are not taking out the promise. To you faith is not "things hoped for," as the Bible says, but a bank check, sure to be cashed in.
OK, fine. But why would I want to take out the promise? What is the purpose?
No, if the world came to an understanding that there is no salvation no matter what. It would make your faith an oxymoron, since you are saved by faith alone! Take out salvation, then what is faith?! If we have no hope or knowledge of a benefit to us by believing that God will deliver us, prayer and worship become meaningless.
God created humans that seek self-interest. That's how the model is built. To some He gave part of that self-interest in the form of seeking Him for salvation. If we simply erase that part, then there would be no reason to seek God. As I said before, AND .... ?
Our relationship with God is made in expectation, indeed guarantee in your case, that God will rescue you or has rescued you and that you shall live. No one worships God for just being God, FK. People are not that altruistic, even if they can convince themselves otherwise.
Absolutely true. Good summary. :) That's why I'm saying "What are we talking about here"? :)
I would protest that "being God" very much involves the fact that He is our Savior, Giver of Life and All That Is Good.
The concept of altruism has no place among worshipers of the God of Our Salvation, the God who has given us life and every good that we enjoy.
His name/nature as Savior, as Life- and Good-Giver cannot be separated from His name/nature as God.
My worship of Him cannot be separated from the fact that He has saved me, that my life and all that I enjoy are from Him Alone.
Altruism, in the sense you have entered it here, is simply and actually inconceivable as part of my relationship as a worshiper to this God. Amen!