Several places. Here are a couple:
Rom 8:28-29 : 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Eph 1:11 : 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, ...
Surely we know that these absolutely include believers, and so prayer must be included here. It is by no means any idea of God forcing me to pray. All I mean is that God made me the way He did, differently from the next Christian. I will pray so often and in such a way, and the next guy will too, and differently. There's nothing necessarily wrong with either of us. God built the model, with the individual specs, knowing how it would "perform". The HS also leads all Christians to prayer.
FK: "The Christian who prays more is a better off Christian on earth. Prayer is good for him."
You keep saying this, but you offer no evidence or even reason for it. There are people who never pray and enjoy fantastic blessings.
I DID already give you an analysis on this. Prayer is both an obedience to God, and is communication with Him. Both of these are good for the believer. Before I repeat myself, do you have arguments AGAINST these propositions? ...... Who are these Christians (I specified Christians) who never pray and enjoy fantastic blessings? I don't know any Christians who never pray. ...... I am not talking about "getting stuff" in exchange for prayer, as you seem to imply. I am talking about sanctification, becoming a better Christian, deepening the relationship with God. You seem to be saying that prayer does not help us in these areas. Why do you pray then?
FK: "I don't believe it is possible for God to sanctify a person, without also preordaining that person to prayer."
Huh? Where do you get that from?
Sanctification brings us closer to God. A principle way this happens is through prayer. God promises that He will sanctify His children, so He WILL draw His own to pray to Him. Do you know any people you consider good Christians who never pray? I have never had to defend prayer before to another Christian, so I admit I am at a loss on how to approach this. :)
FK: "That would make no sense for God to talk to us, but not arrange for us to talk to Him."
And raising people from the dead "makes sense?" Since when is "making sense" a pre-condition for God's work?
You are mixing apples and oranges. When God created the platypus, He was not required to "make sense" by my standards. HOWEVER, God is required to make sense by HIS standards. The Bible provides that it is God's wish that we talk to Him through prayer. In fact, He commands it and encourages it. For God to wish that, but not create a mechanism, such as prayer, for that to happen, would make Him an irrational God. God CANNOT be irrational, OR He is not the God depicted in the Bible and our faith is pointless. God does not have to follow our logic in all cases, but He cannot be internally irrational.
You are asking someone with a completely different mindset. Of course I would say [prayer] enriches my life, but in my case this makes sense. Looking through the prism of the Reformed theology doesn't.
I have thrashed the single argument you have made for this. :) Whether what is going to happen is going to happen regardless is completely irrelevant to the usefulness of prayer. WE don't know what's going to happen, so how can we know what is a "waste of time"? We can't, so it is our lot to still pray about everything. In addition, I have given you other reasons, under our view, that prayer is good for the believer. What else can I do?
The same type of argument against Calvinists says that we don't believe in evangelism because God is going to save who He is going to save, regardless. This is UTTER nonsense. We don't know who is going to be saved, so our mission field is the WHOLE WORLD. Just like prayer, the act of evangelizing is NEVER a waste for the person doing it, even if it does not produce noticeable fruits for others (or our prayer is "predestined" to "fail"). Why do you find this illogical? If we had the power of God's omniscience, then sure, you would be right. But we don't. So, we just follow the teachings of the Bible to pray always, and to teach all nations.
Thanksgiving is not a supplication, FK.
I know that, but you haven't sounded like YOU know that. :) You have said that prayer is all about supplication. So, I ask myself whether you think thanksgiving is part of proper prayer. I say it is. Sometimes, my whole prayer is in thanksgiving and then I'm out. Is that bad? :)
And what would you have said if He didn't let you duck? Shake your fist at Him? Seems like you give thanks for "getting" something, and then you call it supplication, which is preordained, so you have no choice but to press the "Play" button.
You are extrapolating from nothing. If the weird neighbor had cornered me I would have said "oh well, as God wills". That's it. He owes me nothing, but when something goes my way I give Him thanks. So, my prayer to "spare" me was either in accordance with His predestined will or it was not. I'm fine with either result, as concerns my relationship with God. So far, He has been more than good to me, as I perceive it, so when things don't go my way I feel I'm in no position to complain. Everything isn't going to go as I "think" I want it to. I am thankful for that too!
Yet you never talk about disasters. Do you give thanks for bad days too? Should you? I think you should give thanks to the Lord for every day of your life that you know Him, not only when he helps you duck.
Again, where in the universe are you getting this stuff from? I said that I gave thanks to God for a little thing, and you presume that means I ONLY give thanks when something I want happens???!!! That's just not fair, Kosta. I didn't "thank" God for when both of my parents died in their mid 60's a couple of years ago, but I didn't curse Him for it either. It was His will, and that is life. I even had problems because of that, but it didn't negatively affect my relationship with God. My relationship with Him has actually improved since then. I do thank God for every day I am alive and for all He has blessed me with.
He knows your thoughts whether you have a personal relationship with God or not. Him knowing them does not constitute a personal relationship with you. You bringing them to Him is also "preordained" in your theology, so it is not your decision but His. Ergo, what you have is instructions to bring your thoughts to God and you simply react as told.
Completely untrue. Your habit is to translate God's POV to man's, and this simply doesn't happen. If God knows something, you assume that we think man knows it also. Why do you think that? We never say that. I experience my relationship with God from an unknowing posture in terms of what is to come in the future. I do know some general principles, such as the Biblical promises we are given about the relationship, but I don't know if the next few years will be prosperous or in poverty, etc. God knows it all, but I know nothing. How can you say that I'm following instructions, when none of the type you speak of have been given to me? All I know that is that I am totally dependent on Him no matter whether things are going well or badly.
I wouldn't call that a personal relationship. That's something you may have with your boss, or a superior officer in the military. Obedience is not a personal relationship. Personal relationships are spontaneous and personal. In your case they are preprogrammed instructions.
Then I truly regret that you do not know what it is to have such a relationship with God. Perhaps it isn't fatal, but I think you really are missing out on something. I would have guessed that with a hierarchical structure that such a relationship would be very difficult, but I thought that it would be much more possible with the Orthodox than with the Latins. But ...
Anyway, I believe I have a very fulfilling Christian life knowing that God cares and treats me as an individual. He knows all my quirks and all my faults, and He loves me anyway. In my prayers, I can flub a thought and know that it is OK. I can laugh with Him and cry with Him, and I know He cares. I can open myself COMPLETELY to Him, as it happens in real time. Sometimes, my prayers are all over the map, especially if I'm emotional at the time, but that never stops me from talking to Him. As a believer, every single time I pray I KNOW He WANTS to hear it. Whether you want to call this "programmed" or not, Kosta, I know it is very real to me.
When Christ was on earth He prayed. The Holy Spirit appears to be the Member of the Godhead that is our connecting point in time and for all Eternity - ever present, unseen, our Helper, Teacher, Comforter, and Intercessor on our behalf with groans unutterable when we know not how to pray ourselves. I've known for quite a while now that my personal 'best' prayers come from the Throne of God via the Spirit to me (often in hovering over the Word, but not always) and I get the awesome, holy privilege in Christ Jesus to send them back up!
Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up!
It is by no means any idea of God forcing me to pray.
Agreed.
The HS also leads all Christians to prayer.
I am totally with you on that.
Kosta: There are people who never pray and enjoy fantastic blessings.
Prayer is both an obedience to God, and is communication with Him. Both of these are good for the believer. Before I repeat myself, do you have arguments AGAINST these propositions? ...... Who are these Christians (I specified Christians) who never pray and enjoy fantastic blessings?
Yes I do have arguments against these propositions. Prayer is not mere communication; it is supplication for God's favor, mercy, attention.
There are many who rarely if ever go to church who are Christians. Some of them are fantastically blessed.
I don't know any Christians who never pray
So, you are a Christian only if you pray?
You seem to be saying that prayer does not help us in these areas [sanctification, etc.].
Sanctification doesn't depend on prayer.
Why do you pray then?
My theology is different the yours. In my theology, prayer makes sense. In your (Reformed) theology it doesn't.
Sanctification brings us closer to God.
Agreed.
A principle way this happens is through prayer.
Yes, we agree on that. But it doesn;t mean prayer is the only way to reach God. +Paul on the way to Damascus did not pray when he was struck. Prayer does take us to God, but our sanctification (our degree of living the faith) is not "bought" with prayer. It has to do with how much we are willing to cooperate with the HS. Your talents do not multiply proportionally to prayer. In fact, they multiply disproportionately. God gives even though we are never deserving of receiving.
Do you know any people you consider good Christians who never pray?
No.
I have never had to defend prayer before to another Christian, so I admit I am at a loss on how to approach this.
It's not the prayer, but your theology. My theology is not based on double predestination, so prayer and intercession makes sense. In your theology, the movie will end the same way whether you sleep through it or watch it intently. In my theology, prayer is cooperation (with the HS).
WE don't know what's going to happen, so how can we know what is a "waste of time"?
But you tell me that you are already saved (whether you pray or not, whether you go to church or not, whether you commit adultery or not)! So, of course you do claim to know what is going to happen! Besides, you don't believe that prayers change what is going to happen (although the Bible says otherwise). You believe that whatever happens happens by God's will, as it was preordained aeons ago, so what you do or say will not affect it one way or another.
You have said that prayer is all about supplication.
It is.
So, I ask myself whether you think thanksgiving is part of proper prayer.
No. It is part of what we do/say as we get ready for supplication. The introduction and the finalé, the entrance and the exist. In our Divine liturgy, we have the Small Entrance (liturgy of the catechumens), and the Great Entrance (after the catechumens were dismissed); and we have a dismissal (end of service). All three of these start with praising the Lord and progress to supplication (except the dismissal part).
We pray three times a day (Jewish custom). But one can praise the Lord hundreds of times, every minute of the day, without a single supplication! Not the same as prayer.
I say it is. Sometimes, my whole prayer is in thanksgiving and then I'm out.
No, FK, it's great! :)
And what would you have said if He didn't let you duck? Shake your fist at Him? Seems like you give thanks for "getting" something, and then you call it supplication, which is preordained, so you have no choice but to press the "Play" button.
You are extrapolating from nothing. If the weird neighbor had cornered me I would have said "oh well, as God wills".
Then why thank Him then? It really didn't matter if you ran into the neighbor or not. Either way it would have been "God's will."
.
And when things don't go your way?
So, my prayer to "spare" me was either in accordance with His predestined will or it was not. I'm fine with either result
But you said you are certain of your salvation, so how can you sound so confused?
I said that I gave thanks to God for a little thing, and you presume that means I ONLY give thanks when something I want happens???!!!
Because you make it sound that way. Quote: "He owes me nothing, but when something goes my way I give Him thanks."
That's just not fair, Kosta.
??
I didn't "thank" God for when both of my parents died in their mid 60's a couple of years ago, but I didn't curse Him for it either.
I am sorry about that. I do understand, believe me, and I am not making light of it. I am very sorry you lost your parents so early, FK. May our beloved God have mercy and provide comfort on his servants and accept their souls in His Kingdom.
But we Orthodox do give thanks for the departed. For God's mercy, and for love, for allowing us to pray for their souls and commemorate them. But above all we give thanks in knowing that the Lord is merciful and just, which give us hope that those who are asleep in Him have been saved. God gives life and God takes it back when the right time comes.
But we need to thank the Lord even on bad days, for even if the day was bad, we have still been blessed all other days and He gave us air and water and food and shelter and many other things we didn't deserve.
All I know that is that I am totally dependent on Him no matter whether things are going well or badly.
Maybe it has to do with your choices. Your brain counts too, FK. :)
Then I truly regret that you do not know what it is to have such a relationship with God.
FK, all I can hope for is for God to hear my prayers, even though I don't deserve Him. I am sorry that your sense of reverence allows God to be your "buddy." My sense of reverences is that my knees tremble as I receive communion, and most of the time I feel like falling on my face in order to just pray.
Anyway, I believe I have a very fulfilling Christian life knowing that God cares and treats me as an individual. He knows all my quirks and all my faults, and He loves me anyway. In my prayers, I can flub a thought and know that it is OK. I can laugh with Him and cry with Him, and I know He cares. I can open myself COMPLETELY to Him, as it happens in real time. Sometimes, my prayers are all over the map, especially if I'm emotional at the time, but that never stops me from talking to Him. As a believer, every single time I pray I KNOW He WANTS to hear it. Whether you want to call this "programmed" or not, Kosta, I know it is very real to me.
You don't sound anything like your theology, FK. For if you believed your theology of double predestination you would be letting God drive and you could sleep, safe and sound, and not have a worry on your mind.
I can laugh with Him and cry with Him
God laughs?
Bottom line, FK: prayer is not communication; it is supplication. People communicate. People do not pray to each other. God know what we need and want before we even verbalize it by lips or in our thoughts. And it's not like he talks back, not very often, that is. :)
Our prayers do not come as "news" to Him. We pray because we need God, because we are not secure. If we truly believed with all our heart, mind and soul, we would only give God thanks and never ask for anything.
Our Cherubic Hymn expresses that in the last verse
Let us set aside all cares of life that we may receive the King of all, Who comes invisibly escorted by the Divine Hosts.