It is by no means any idea of God forcing me to pray.
Agreed.
The HS also leads all Christians to prayer.
I am totally with you on that.
Kosta: There are people who never pray and enjoy fantastic blessings.
Prayer is both an obedience to God, and is communication with Him. Both of these are good for the believer. Before I repeat myself, do you have arguments AGAINST these propositions? ...... Who are these Christians (I specified Christians) who never pray and enjoy fantastic blessings?
Yes I do have arguments against these propositions. Prayer is not mere communication; it is supplication for God's favor, mercy, attention.
There are many who rarely if ever go to church who are Christians. Some of them are fantastically blessed.
I don't know any Christians who never pray
So, you are a Christian only if you pray?
You seem to be saying that prayer does not help us in these areas [sanctification, etc.].
Sanctification doesn't depend on prayer.
Why do you pray then?
My theology is different the yours. In my theology, prayer makes sense. In your (Reformed) theology it doesn't.
Sanctification brings us closer to God.
Agreed.
A principle way this happens is through prayer.
Yes, we agree on that. But it doesn;t mean prayer is the only way to reach God. +Paul on the way to Damascus did not pray when he was struck. Prayer does take us to God, but our sanctification (our degree of living the faith) is not "bought" with prayer. It has to do with how much we are willing to cooperate with the HS. Your talents do not multiply proportionally to prayer. In fact, they multiply disproportionately. God gives even though we are never deserving of receiving.
Do you know any people you consider good Christians who never pray?
No.
I have never had to defend prayer before to another Christian, so I admit I am at a loss on how to approach this.
It's not the prayer, but your theology. My theology is not based on double predestination, so prayer and intercession makes sense. In your theology, the movie will end the same way whether you sleep through it or watch it intently. In my theology, prayer is cooperation (with the HS).
WE don't know what's going to happen, so how can we know what is a "waste of time"?
But you tell me that you are already saved (whether you pray or not, whether you go to church or not, whether you commit adultery or not)! So, of course you do claim to know what is going to happen! Besides, you don't believe that prayers change what is going to happen (although the Bible says otherwise). You believe that whatever happens happens by God's will, as it was preordained aeons ago, so what you do or say will not affect it one way or another.
You have said that prayer is all about supplication.
It is.
So, I ask myself whether you think thanksgiving is part of proper prayer.
No. It is part of what we do/say as we get ready for supplication. The introduction and the finalé, the entrance and the exist. In our Divine liturgy, we have the Small Entrance (liturgy of the catechumens), and the Great Entrance (after the catechumens were dismissed); and we have a dismissal (end of service). All three of these start with praising the Lord and progress to supplication (except the dismissal part).
We pray three times a day (Jewish custom). But one can praise the Lord hundreds of times, every minute of the day, without a single supplication! Not the same as prayer.
I say it is. Sometimes, my whole prayer is in thanksgiving and then I'm out.
No, FK, it's great! :)
And what would you have said if He didn't let you duck? Shake your fist at Him? Seems like you give thanks for "getting" something, and then you call it supplication, which is preordained, so you have no choice but to press the "Play" button.
You are extrapolating from nothing. If the weird neighbor had cornered me I would have said "oh well, as God wills".
Then why thank Him then? It really didn't matter if you ran into the neighbor or not. Either way it would have been "God's will."
.
And when things don't go your way?
So, my prayer to "spare" me was either in accordance with His predestined will or it was not. I'm fine with either result
But you said you are certain of your salvation, so how can you sound so confused?
I said that I gave thanks to God for a little thing, and you presume that means I ONLY give thanks when something I want happens???!!!
Because you make it sound that way. Quote: "He owes me nothing, but when something goes my way I give Him thanks."
That's just not fair, Kosta.
??
I didn't "thank" God for when both of my parents died in their mid 60's a couple of years ago, but I didn't curse Him for it either.
I am sorry about that. I do understand, believe me, and I am not making light of it. I am very sorry you lost your parents so early, FK. May our beloved God have mercy and provide comfort on his servants and accept their souls in His Kingdom.
But we Orthodox do give thanks for the departed. For God's mercy, and for love, for allowing us to pray for their souls and commemorate them. But above all we give thanks in knowing that the Lord is merciful and just, which give us hope that those who are asleep in Him have been saved. God gives life and God takes it back when the right time comes.
But we need to thank the Lord even on bad days, for even if the day was bad, we have still been blessed all other days and He gave us air and water and food and shelter and many other things we didn't deserve.
All I know that is that I am totally dependent on Him no matter whether things are going well or badly.
Maybe it has to do with your choices. Your brain counts too, FK. :)
Then I truly regret that you do not know what it is to have such a relationship with God.
FK, all I can hope for is for God to hear my prayers, even though I don't deserve Him. I am sorry that your sense of reverence allows God to be your "buddy." My sense of reverences is that my knees tremble as I receive communion, and most of the time I feel like falling on my face in order to just pray.
Anyway, I believe I have a very fulfilling Christian life knowing that God cares and treats me as an individual. He knows all my quirks and all my faults, and He loves me anyway. In my prayers, I can flub a thought and know that it is OK. I can laugh with Him and cry with Him, and I know He cares. I can open myself COMPLETELY to Him, as it happens in real time. Sometimes, my prayers are all over the map, especially if I'm emotional at the time, but that never stops me from talking to Him. As a believer, every single time I pray I KNOW He WANTS to hear it. Whether you want to call this "programmed" or not, Kosta, I know it is very real to me.
You don't sound anything like your theology, FK. For if you believed your theology of double predestination you would be letting God drive and you could sleep, safe and sound, and not have a worry on your mind.
I can laugh with Him and cry with Him
God laughs?
Bottom line, FK: prayer is not communication; it is supplication. People communicate. People do not pray to each other. God know what we need and want before we even verbalize it by lips or in our thoughts. And it's not like he talks back, not very often, that is. :)
Our prayers do not come as "news" to Him. We pray because we need God, because we are not secure. If we truly believed with all our heart, mind and soul, we would only give God thanks and never ask for anything.
Our Cherubic Hymn expresses that in the last verse
Let us set aside all cares of life that we may receive the King of all, Who comes invisibly escorted by the Divine Hosts.
All prayer is communication, but not all communication is prayer. Communication is just a broader category, not a lesser one.
So, you are a Christian only if you pray?
All Christians pray, but not all prayer is Christian. I'm on a roll here. :)
Sanctification doesn't depend on prayer.
So do you believe that there can be a true believer, who goes through his life never praying to God, and nevertheless go to Heaven? I don't think that is possible. Part of the fruit of true belief is wanting to talk to our God. That comes built in with the faith that God gives us. If someone tries to manufacture his own faith, like many liberals do, then he might not pray, but neither is he a Christian.
FK: "Why do you pray then?"
My theology is different than yours. In my theology, prayer makes sense. In your (Reformed) theology it doesn't.
OK, so the reason you pray then, is that in your theology it makes sense. I see ...... I think.
+Paul on the way to Damascus did not pray when he was struck.
Sure he did. :) After the flash of light and voice from nowhere, Paul immediately says: "Who are you, Lord?" (Acts 9:5). That is a prayer. Paul asked what the name of God was here. If a man had just walked up to him he might have said: "Who are you"? But with the accouterments, it seems more likely he knew he was addressing God.
Prayer does take us to God, but our sanctification (our degree of living the faith) is not "bought" with prayer. It has to do with how much we are willing to cooperate with the HS.
You simply list two different types of purchases. I disagree with both. I suppose it only follows that if man determines his own salvation, through cooperation, then the same would be true for sanctification, under your view. We are equally as consistent by saying that God also accomplishes our sanctification with all credit going to Him.
But you tell me that you are already saved (whether you pray or not, whether you go to church or not, whether you commit adultery or not)!
No, that is your very incomplete paraphrase of what I have said. While God never loses a true believer (true in scripture but not in Apostolic theology), He also actively prevents any such person from falling far enough away to cost him his salvation. That is the part you always conveniently leave out.
FK: "So, I ask myself whether you think thanksgiving is part of proper prayer."
No. It is part of what we do/say as we get ready for supplication.
Well, at least we've gotten down to the bottom of it. :) I consider everything including and in between "Dear Heavenly Father" and "Amen" to be part of prayer. I think that prayer, as a part of worship, should include praise and thanksgiving. Perhaps we see the following differently:
1 Thess 5:16-18 : 16 Be joyful always; 17 pray continually; 18 give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
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Then why thank Him then? It really didn't matter if you ran into the neighbor or not. Either way it would have been "God's will."
Yes, but it makes a difference to me. Of course it's not all the time, but sometimes, my wishes DO match what God wants. When that happens it is easy to give thanks. As I mature, I learn to give thanks even for things that do not match my wishes. That is more difficult.
But you said you are certain of your salvation, so how can you sound so confused?
When I pray about the neighbor in the hypo, it has nothing to do with salvation. I'm certain of my salvation, but I'm not certain that I won't come down with cancer tomorrow. The former cannot go either way, but the latter could. Therefore, no confusion.
Because you make it sound that way. Quote: "He owes me nothing, but when something goes my way I give Him thanks."
By your reasoning, if I said I like "green", you would conclude I do not like "blue". The fact is I only gave an opinion about green and said nothing at all about blue. That's what you are doing, and that's what I meant when I said it wasn't fair. In this case, in my original statement, I said nothing at all about what I do in the thanks department when things do not go my way, all I said is that when they DO go my way I give thanks. As I alluded to above, I do not always give thanks for things that hurt, but sometimes I do. I believe part of my sanctification will be improving upon the ratio as I mature under His guidance.
May our beloved God have mercy and provide comfort on his servants and accept their souls in His Kingdom.
Thank you my friend. Much appreciated.
FK, all I can hope for is for God to hear my prayers, even though I don't deserve Him.
Don't worry, if your heart is right with God He will always hear you, although sometimes He says "no" or "wait":
Ps 4:3 : Know that the Lord has set apart the godly for himself; the Lord will hear when I call to him.
Ps 34:15 : The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their cry; ...
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I am sorry that your sense of reverence allows God to be your "buddy."
LOL! Oh, it's not that bad. I can't think of a single time where I have referred to Jesus as "The Most Holy Dudemeister". :) All I'm saying is that I think God wants to have a personal relationship with us, and in that personal relationship I should and do feel free to completely open myself up to Him. I feel like I can tell Him anything and everything and He will understand. I don't think that brings God down at all.
You don't sound anything like your theology, FK. For if you believed your theology of double predestination you would be letting God drive and you could sleep, safe and sound, and not have a worry on your mind.
I do let God drive, but in practice only mostly, not fully. Shame on me. Maybe if my faith was fully developed I wouldn't have a care in the world, but I'm not there yet. :) I know that I worry less than most people, but I'm not done growing yet. I still have plenty of faults. Intellectually, I know that all of my petty earthly concerns are pointless, but that isn't always so easy to put into practice.
God laughs?
Well, while I think that God DOES have a sense of humor, I meant that I laugh in His presence within prayer. Almost always, it is at myself, so I imagine that He laughs too. :)
If we truly believed with all our heart, mind and soul, we would only give God thanks and never ask for anything.
At first, that sounded pretty reasonable, but then I thought of verses like these:
1 John 5:14-15 : 14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us — whatever we ask — we know that we have what we asked of him.
John 16:23-24 : 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
Do not these and other passages tell us that if we have a pure heart we can have anything we want? These appear to encourage a fully mature Christian to ask for things.