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To: Forest Keeper; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix; adiaireton8
In light of "God does not make choices", how is it determined who gets into Heaven?

We don't know (does He tell us?), but He is not driven by possibilities, or uncertainties is He?

Do we pass a test and then God is obligated to let us in?

No, because that would subject God to necessity. Anyway, He would already know our test scores before we took the test, so it would not be a choice, would it? :)

In addition, I assume your position is that Jesus Christ did NOT choose to die for us on the cross

Was there a choice or just His will? He willed Himself to die; He didn't "choose" to die as if there was an alternative, was there?

I find it odd that you are denying free will to God

Not His will, only His need to choose. To will something is not necessarily the same to choose. When God said "Let there be light" was He choosing? Or was He willing? Or when He said "Let Us make man in Our image and likeness..." was He choosing or willing?

A choice requires a decision and a decision requires a will. Clearly, a decision and a choice are subordinate to will. God's will is not subordinate to anything.

15,543 posted on 06/05/2007 7:06:59 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper
In light of "God does not make choices", how is it determined who gets into Heaven?

We don't know (does He tell us?), but He is not driven by possibilities, or uncertainties is He?

We most certainly do know what determines a person's entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven! And thank Our Glorious God for such certainty!

"He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
~John 3:33, 36

We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
~1 John 5:9-13

15,552 posted on 06/06/2007 2:32:43 AM PDT by .30Carbine (Proverbs 10:19)
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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix; adiaireton8
FK: "In light of "God does not make choices", how is it determined who gets into Heaven?"

We don't know (does He tell us?), but He is not driven by possibilities, or uncertainties is He?

You don't know how people get into Heaven??? You don't know if He tells us??? I know you too well to take this at surface level, so I'll just ask you to please elaborate. :) I might disagree with the theology of your answer, but I would expect you to have an answer. What would you tell a newcomer if he asked you how people get to go to Heaven? Peter tells us that people like you and me should be able to hit this one out of the park! :)

As to Him being "driven" by possibilities or uncertainties, I really don't even know what you mean by this. In Matthew we are told that "with God, all things are possible". We are not told "with God all possible things happen." In our reality, how do you suppose that the infinitely possible is whittled down to the actual real?

FK: "Do we pass a test and then God is obligated to let us in?"

No, because that would subject God to necessity. Anyway, He would already know our test scores before we took the test, so it would not be a choice, would it? :)

But under the Apostolic view, (or at least the Latin view), of Biblical predestination God already DOES know our test scores and "predestines" on that basis. That is why it seems to me that under your view man must first pass a test before God acts by obligation. Under your view, does God NOT elect any man whom He foresees passes the test? Of course not because God is impartial. Therefore, for you God is obligated to elect those He foresees accepting Him and performing requisite works, etc.

Was there a choice or just His will? He willed Himself to die; He didn't "choose" to die as if there was an alternative, was there?

Of course there was a choice, but it was made LONG before Christ decided to surrender Himself at the Mount of Olives. God did not HAVE to create, but He chose to. God did not HAVE to create man in His image such that he COULD fall, but He chose to. God did not HAVE to provide a remedy for lost man, but He chose to. We could go on forever here. For God to HAVE will, He must have and EXERCISE choice. Otherwise, God is more like a robot, as Hosepipe said.

FK: "I find it odd that you are denying free will to God."

Not His will, only His need to choose.

Nobody is placing a "need" upon God. Do you think that choice requires need? It does not. I choose which talking heads to watch every night, but there is no "need" involved. I don't think there is an argument there. I still think that if you deny choice to God, like you believe He gave us, then you deny Him free will, like you believe He gave us. It seems like under your view, God gave man a lot more rights than He gave Himself. :)

To will something is not necessarily the same to choose.

YES IT IS! :) This is because the "willer" did not will something else, including willing nothing at all. It was a choice.

When God said "Let there be light" was He choosing? Or was He willing?

He was willing to choose to create light vs. willing to choose to not create light. He chose to create light.

A choice requires a decision and a decision requires a will. Clearly, a decision and a choice are subordinate to will. God's will is not subordinate to anything.

What? :) How is this mini-hierarchy relevant to anything? God's will IS supreme. And, choice is subordinate. However, by definition, God's will CANNOT operate if there is no choice. That is, if we assume that God's will is truly FREE.

15,614 posted on 06/08/2007 6:14:27 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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