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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix; adiaireton8
FK: "In light of "God does not make choices", how is it determined who gets into Heaven?"

We don't know (does He tell us?), but He is not driven by possibilities, or uncertainties is He?

You don't know how people get into Heaven??? You don't know if He tells us??? I know you too well to take this at surface level, so I'll just ask you to please elaborate. :) I might disagree with the theology of your answer, but I would expect you to have an answer. What would you tell a newcomer if he asked you how people get to go to Heaven? Peter tells us that people like you and me should be able to hit this one out of the park! :)

As to Him being "driven" by possibilities or uncertainties, I really don't even know what you mean by this. In Matthew we are told that "with God, all things are possible". We are not told "with God all possible things happen." In our reality, how do you suppose that the infinitely possible is whittled down to the actual real?

FK: "Do we pass a test and then God is obligated to let us in?"

No, because that would subject God to necessity. Anyway, He would already know our test scores before we took the test, so it would not be a choice, would it? :)

But under the Apostolic view, (or at least the Latin view), of Biblical predestination God already DOES know our test scores and "predestines" on that basis. That is why it seems to me that under your view man must first pass a test before God acts by obligation. Under your view, does God NOT elect any man whom He foresees passes the test? Of course not because God is impartial. Therefore, for you God is obligated to elect those He foresees accepting Him and performing requisite works, etc.

Was there a choice or just His will? He willed Himself to die; He didn't "choose" to die as if there was an alternative, was there?

Of course there was a choice, but it was made LONG before Christ decided to surrender Himself at the Mount of Olives. God did not HAVE to create, but He chose to. God did not HAVE to create man in His image such that he COULD fall, but He chose to. God did not HAVE to provide a remedy for lost man, but He chose to. We could go on forever here. For God to HAVE will, He must have and EXERCISE choice. Otherwise, God is more like a robot, as Hosepipe said.

FK: "I find it odd that you are denying free will to God."

Not His will, only His need to choose.

Nobody is placing a "need" upon God. Do you think that choice requires need? It does not. I choose which talking heads to watch every night, but there is no "need" involved. I don't think there is an argument there. I still think that if you deny choice to God, like you believe He gave us, then you deny Him free will, like you believe He gave us. It seems like under your view, God gave man a lot more rights than He gave Himself. :)

To will something is not necessarily the same to choose.

YES IT IS! :) This is because the "willer" did not will something else, including willing nothing at all. It was a choice.

When God said "Let there be light" was He choosing? Or was He willing?

He was willing to choose to create light vs. willing to choose to not create light. He chose to create light.

A choice requires a decision and a decision requires a will. Clearly, a decision and a choice are subordinate to will. God's will is not subordinate to anything.

What? :) How is this mini-hierarchy relevant to anything? God's will IS supreme. And, choice is subordinate. However, by definition, God's will CANNOT operate if there is no choice. That is, if we assume that God's will is truly FREE.

15,614 posted on 06/08/2007 6:14:27 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Mad Dawg; fortheDeclaration

I have long had a hypothesis . . .

that BARRING OTHER CONTINGENCIES we may not be aware of in our finiteness . . . when

COMPLEXITY

and

. . . KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING, IQ . . .

reach certain levels, CHOICE INCREASES DRAMATICALLY.

And, it’s interesting that the animals God sanctions eating . . . sheep, chickens, cows . . . are NOT the brightest fur and feathers around.

CERTAINLY GOD HAS INFINITE OPTIONS.

He is NOT His own restricted, constipated, straightjacketed robot—enslaved to His own programming!!!

Of course, I’ve long LOVED OPTIONS. But I discern and have observed, God loves Options, too . . . at least . . . in many respects.

Certainly there is one way to The Father—Jesus The Christ.

And, THE LOVE WAY is THE WAY in daily life.

However, look at the diversity in CREATION . . . in humans . . . in a single human. God loves diversity, options, . . . and . . . “CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE.”

At some point, the philosophical conundrum about an all knowing God beyond time not having choice is just silly to me, even in my finiteness.

I may not understand how or all the dimensions and contingencies about an all knowing God having choices . . . but I do understand that HE IS A LOT BIGGER than to have NONE!


15,618 posted on 06/08/2007 6:53:33 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Forest Keeper; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix; adiaireton8
I am not sure if you will get this or not, since you willbe on vacation, but eventualy you will catch up.

As to Him being "driven" by possibilities or uncertainties, I really don't even know what you mean by this

To put it succinctly: God is never in a dilemma. God is absolutely certain about everything. Ergo, He is never in a position to "choose." 

Does God ponder "Should We do this or that?" Implying that God must pick among choices that are somehow forced upon Him is anthropomorphism par excellence — making God fit our image — which seems to be very prevalent among Protestants.

15,628 posted on 06/08/2007 2:30:26 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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