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To: kosta50; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis; .30Carbine; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
Do you pray for your resurrection? Or are you sure of it?

I am sure of it.

While you are at this, tell me why did Jesus pray? Why do we pray?

As you well know, prayer is much more than supplication. It is communication with God, and He commands it out of His love for us. All honest prayer glorifies God and benefits us. Prayer is good in God's eyes. Likewise, Jesus benefited from communicating with the Father. We also benefit from His prayer both directly and because of the example.

FK: "What's the difference? Why is this significant, with the understanding that "He was raised" is not exclusionary of Christ's Divine power?"

It's extremely significant! If he did not raise Himself of His own power, than He is not fully God, but someone who depends on God's power. The trinitarian error of +Paul's is as clear as glass here: when he wrote this he either did not consider Christ to be fully God, or he thought of Christ as a lesser God, a divine Son subordained to God.

Huh? I don't follow your conclusions at all. Why do you prohibit the Godhead from acting at all? That's what you're doing. You are saying that any act of God must be on an individual Person's basis. Where does that come from? We ARE sometimes told that individual Persons handle individual things, but no where are we told that God's essence is incapable of action as a unity. That just makes no sense. In fact, I would say that in reality all actions of any Person are also acts of the Trinity.

If God could harden Pharaoh's heart, He surely could have softened the hearts of the elect without miracles.

Yes, I was imprecise in saying that Jesus performed miracles to convert. God converts by changing hearts inwardly. Of course outward miracles are not required for conversion.

The efficacy of a priest's prayer or sacrament is not affected by his character flaws. For no priest is free from sin. Whether a pilot is a rotten character and a wife abuser does not invalidate his piloting skills. he may be a rotten human being but he may be a perfect pilot.

Why does the year 1998 immediately come into my mind after reading this? :)

The priest has no power of his own to bless or to forgive. It is the HS that blesses and forgives and not the priest. He can only petition the HS to bless you and forgive you. The priest does not change the bread and wine; the HS does.

Now THIS is significant! :) I thought that Orthodoxy leaned in this direction, and my understanding is that the Latins have a VERY different view. My learning has been that Roman Catholics believe that God literally transferred the power to forgive sins and "transubstantiate", etc. IOW, once the power transfer takes place, then they DO accomplish it "on their own".

It's so pathetic that you believe God changes our hearts unilaterally, "enslaving" us without us knowing it...You truly believe that we "want" God when in fact he merely reprogrammed us and we have nothing to with it whatsoever.

Do you have a question? :)

15,437 posted on 05/30/2007 6:42:33 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis; .30Carbine; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
I am sure of own resurrection].

So, then, I suppose you don't pray for it, do you?

Why do you prohibit the Godhead from acting at all? That's what you're doing. You are saying that any act of God must be on an individual Person's basis.

In the Divine Economy of our salvation, that's how it is in the Bible. Otherwise, why send Holy Spirit, as in the HS leading Christ into the wilderness? Or HS descending on the Gentiles? Or HS indwelling in us? Why not just say "God" and not have to "worry" which Divine Persona is accomplishing the task?

no where are we told that God's essence is incapable of action as a unity.

Again, in the Divine Economy of our salvation, God accomplishes things in different Divine Personae. It was the Word that took on human nature. It is the Father who knows when the End of Times will be, not even the Son, etc. That doesn't mean that God is not present fully in the Fathers, the Son or the Holy Spirit, regardless which Divine Persona is accomplishing the plan.

That just makes no sense.

I agree there. God makes no sense; His thoughts are not our and His ways are not ours either. He is inconceivable, beyond our logic; the ancient Fathers used to say that God'a sanctity is darkness to our reason.

Yes, I was imprecise in saying that Jesus performed miracles to convert. God converts by changing hearts inwardly. Of course outward miracles are not required for conversion.

The Bible doesn't say they are required, but it sure uses miracles all over the place to make people believe. In fact, it is the leading cause of conversions in the Bible.

Why does the year 1998 immediately come into my mind after reading this? :)

1998? No idea.

Now THIS is significant! :) I thought that Orthodoxy leaned in this direction, and my understanding is that the Latins have a VERY different view.

The Latins do have a different teaching. To us a priest is an icon of Christ; to the Latins he is an alter-Christ. As you know, we do not worship an icon of Chirst, but the Person it reminds us of. God causes things to be, we only plant and water because he gave us a chance to do so. (cf 1 Cor 3:5-6)

Thus a priest does what he is supoosed to do, and the rest is done by God. That's why, as long as a priest is does what he is supposed to do (he is a servant after all!), the quality of his character cannot affect the sacraments any more than a waiter's charater can affect the quality of the food prepared by the Chef that he brings to you, as long as he is doing what he is supposed to be doing, namely serving you.

My learning has been that Roman Catholics believe that God literally transferred the power to forgive sins and "transubstantiate", etc.

We do not know what transubstantiation is. We do not know how the HS changes the pre-sanctified Gifts into the Body and Blood of Christ.

My own "understanding" of it is that the HS purifies the Gifts to the same pristine quality that is found only in, and identical to His body and His blood, without changing the matter itself, just as the HS changes people into something "unrecongizable" after they are "saved," to use your terminology. Same people, different quality. From beastliness to sainthood.

15,439 posted on 05/30/2007 10:46:27 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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