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To: jo kus
I do not think ANY Christian teacher (me being one) should be concerned about "bible knowledge" in of itself, but rather whether this knowledge of God is put to practice in one's life or not.

Putting it into practice in one's life is, as you say, the most important factor. To receive truth and not adhere to it is a much greater error than to have never heard truth.

Rather than saying we should check them against the Bible, it would be more correct to "check them against the Traditions given, both oral AND written", as Paul wrote the Thessalonians.

Jo kus, I can't agree with you here. The traditions of man can be very dangerous and change over time. God's Word does not. God sent His Son and His prophets to teach us. We, of course, listen to our teachers and those we respect and we learn from them. God judges those teachers first and then us. We will not be able to say, but he taught me that was a religious thing to do. He wants us to know His Word.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God
15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, "Men and brethern, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

That is what can happen if you don't read the Word of God. People love to have their "ears tickled".

Mark 4:24 And He said unto them, "Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Father warns us in Jeremiah 14 about listening to others, of following their traditions:

10...Thus have they loved to wander they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; He will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins."
12.When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence."
These people thought they were doing the right thing. They were fasting and making offerings to the Lord - apparently just playing church, but He will not hear them. They are following traditions of man, not God and the only way to know is to know His Word.
14.Then the Lord said unto me, "The prophets prophesy lies in My name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them; they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

There are many that will come in His name, disguised as men of God. We are to know them by their fruits but if we don't know the Word how will we know they are false teachers?

Is this to state that our conscience be our guide? St Aquinas agrees with you. He said that if our conscience tells us that Jesus did not rise from the dead, we shouldn't believe it. We must adhere to our conscience - while opening searching for the truth.

His Word tells us Jesus rose from the dead. If one's conscience told us otherwise that person is not of God. I do not think we should listen to our conscience if His Word tells us - it makes the final ruling. Without access to His Word I believe our conscience is then all we would be able to follow. I believe that there is a barometer for goodness in all of us.

........Ping

15,296 posted on 05/27/2007 11:09:06 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
Rather than saying we should check them against the Bible, it would be more correct to "check them against the Traditions given, both oral AND written", as Paul wrote the Thessalonians.

Jo kus, I can't agree with you here. The traditions of man can be very dangerous and change over time. God's Word does not. God sent His Son and His prophets to teach us.

Ping,

I'm not saying you're wrong (not now, anyway). I'm trying to say why this rolls right off the back of some Catholics and Orthodox, okay?

We would say not all traditions are traditions of men. SOME traditions are, but, we think, some traditions are not.

So I agree that the "traditions of man" are dangerous and untrustworthy."

In tis connection I think the phrase "word of God" in Acts 13:44 and 15:7 does NOT mean Scripture. In fact, if someone heard Peter, and then went home and told his bed-ridden next-door neighbor what Peter had said, that there would have been what WE call "tradition".

My second alleged point is:
I also think that the Jehovah's Witnesses and some of the Jewish Christian groups are enough to show that reading the Bible does not confer immunity from Itchy Ear Syndrome. It's a widespread disease.

=========

In other news:
His Word tells us Jesus rose from the dead. If one's conscience told us otherwise that person is not of God. I do not think we should listen to our conscience if His Word tells us - it makes the final ruling.

Aquinas does not say that following one's conscience is a guarantee of doing right. He says, as I recall, that NOT following your conscience is a guarantee of doing wrong, either flat out wrong or doing the right thing for the wrong reason. So yes, it is wrong to believe that IHS did not rise from the dead. But, if it were possible to believe it against one's conscience, that would be wrong too. In other words, obedience to conscience is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for doing the right thing.

15,298 posted on 05/27/2007 12:40:04 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.)
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To: Ping-Pong
I wrote : Rather than saying we should check them against the Bible, it would be more correct to "check them against the Traditions given, both oral AND written", as Paul wrote the Thessalonians.

You responded :Jo kus, I can't agree with you here. The traditions of man can be very dangerous and change over time. God's Word does not.

Brother, I understand your disagreement, but you are confusing the nature of the word "tradition" as used in the Bible. Tradition means teaching. It is used BOTH in positive AND negative senses. In Thessalonians, it is used in the positive sense. This Tradition IS FROM GOD! Paul says so in Galatians chapter one. He says these teachings are NOT from man. Thus, his traditions, both orally and in written form, are from God. NO ONE tells us in the Bible that only written traditions are from God, while oral traditions are from men! Paul makes no such distinction.

On the other hand, there are teaching of men, the negative sense of "tradition" And example of this is Jesus' attack of the practice of Korban, which is an attempt to release one's responsibility to provide for one's parents, a breaking of God's commandment.

Thus, a Tradition is considered "of men" when it attempts to circumvent the Word of God. That is not what Apostolic Tradition, as Paul discusses it, does. It is from God, it does not circumvent God's commands!

There are many that will come in His name, disguised as men of God. We are to know them by their fruits but if we don't know the Word how will we know they are false teachers?

We can know God's Word by HEARING it, not necessarily READING it. Isn't that what Romans says?

Regards

15,315 posted on 05/27/2007 8:00:21 PM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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