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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50
This is exactly the crux of the mystery I am trying to discover. :) I don't understand how this is not a "house divided". I mean, my faith is concrete, and I have opinions in some areas, such as a young earth. However, they never directly contradict. This is why I don't understand when you say that your opinion on occasion conflicts with Church teaching.

That is because the Protestant mindset is to defer to themselves and their own opinion, while those of the Church defer to the Church. The Church doesn't "know" the entire Truth. Just the fullness of Revelation. God has not necessarily revealed EVERYTHING about Himself, nor every angle of theological understanding. Thus, in time, we see the Fathers "learning" more about what God has revealed, further delving into the mystery. However, if your foundation is built on sand (our clouded intellect because we are torn by sin and its effects), there will be problems. We are told in the Gospels that certain truths CANNOT be learned by the "flesh", but only by the Spirit within the Church (John 6 and Mat 16, for example). Build upon rock and you can be sure of more advanced theological expressions later.

I respectfully disagree and say that not only does MY local church not know the truth fully, but that God's Church does not know the truth fully (unless it is unknowable to the individual). Otherwise, there is no more growth and sanctification ceases.

Sanctification is not "knowing about" Christ, as if you are studying for a test on your Bible Commentary. Kosta will no doubt agree that the holiest and most saintly are often the simplest of people, people who could care less what were the various theological explanations of grace vs. free will and the Scripture quotes that back up each side. This makes your faith strictly intellectual. Becoming Holy, as God is Holy, is about growing in love through experience of Christ's love within us. This "school" begins at the Cross, at the foot of Calvary, not in your books on textual criticism and commentaries on the Bible.

If you believe that the Orthodox Church is in possession of the truth fully, and if your last council was over a thousand years ago, and if you have three dogmas, and if every holding of the consensus patrum is searchable and learnable by any Orthodoxer today, then, have you stopped growing spiritually?

Spirituality, again, is application of what God has revealed to mankind. Spirituality doesn't stop just because God has finished writing Scripture or the Church has not been defining doctrine in over 50 years.

Regards

15,018 posted on 05/23/2007 7:02:19 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus; kosta50
FK to Kosta: "This is why I don't understand when you say that your opinion on occasion conflicts with Church teaching."

That is because the Protestant mindset is to defer to themselves and their own opinion, while those of the Church defer to the Church.

That's not right, our mindset is to defer to scripture only. Sometimes my previous opinion has disagreed with scripture, such as with OSAS. Then, once I really learn the scripture I change my opinion to agree with it. Sanctification has happened and I am the better for it. AND, my true opinion HAS indeed changed. This is the part I'm talking about.

FK: "I respectfully disagree and say that not only does MY local church not know the truth fully, but that God's Church does not know the truth fully (unless it is unknowable to the individual). Otherwise, there is no more growth and sanctification ceases."

Sanctification is not "knowing about" Christ, as if you are studying for a test on your Bible Commentary. Kosta will no doubt agree that the holiest and most saintly are often the simplest of people, people who could care less what were the various theological explanations of grace vs. free will and the Scripture quotes that back up each side. This makes your faith strictly intellectual. ...

You are inferring what I did not imply. I was clearly speaking of "THE TRUTH" as a generality (Christian). Sanctification isn't ONLY knowing "about" Christ, however, it is certainly included in knowing Him through the scriptures more and more. I don't think you would deny that. Of course there are people without Bibles who are more sanctified than I am now. That is all controlled by God. But since I DO have a Bible I am sanctified when I read it and learn to be more like Him.

This does not mean my faith is only intellectual, I just didn't speak of the spiritual side. That includes prayer and meditation. I do not think the spiritual side of faith includes putting trust into other men. "Spiritual" is between the individual and God.

15,362 posted on 05/28/2007 5:52:06 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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