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To: Forest Keeper; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix
Kosta: Then we are helpless and hopeless

FK: Yes, by ourselves, that's exactly right

We were created in His image and given dominion on earth. He created us in His likeness so that we may be reasonable, merciful and moral beings, not helpless morons.

That we use those blessings to condemn ourselves to hell is not His, but our choosing. We can equally choose to cleave to God and be saved. It's a choice, for the wicked do not seek after God (cf Ps 10:4).

If all God does is offer, and leaves it up to us to save ourselves, then He doesn't care which of us is saved, or which become His children. He is turning His back and washing His hands of the decision. I think God cares much more than that

God offers His saving grace to all because He desires to have all men saved (cf 1 Tim 2:4), and He does not desire or delight in death (perdition) even of the wicked (cf Eze 18:23) or anyone for that matter (cf Eze 18:32).

It is a Christian hope (faith) that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (cf 1 Tim 4:10), and that the grace of God brings salvation to all men (cf Titus 2:11) [who will come to Him], for God would have none perish but rather have all come to repentance (cf 2 Pet 3:9).

He offers to everyone, not only some, precisely because He loves everyone, even the wicked. For the scripture leaves no doubt that God is impartial (cf Deu 10:17, 2 Chr 19:7, Act 10:34, Rom 2:11, Gal 2:6, Eph 6:9 Col 3:25, 1 Pet 1:17)

14,386 posted on 05/09/2007 7:47:41 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; hosepipe; wmfights

Excellent Scriptural review . . .

There are some mysteries vis a vis

God loving everyone and not willing that any should perish but that all should come to at least the knowledge of the Truth (I Tim 2:1-5)

vs

hating those who do violence, liars etc.

. . .

free-will vs election etc.

I believe that from God’s perspective, there’s no even seeming contradiction. But our finiteness and the constraints of our finite languages limited the fullness of our understanding of God’s perspective.

But those who compulsively try and squeeze and slam uncomfortable Scriptures into their tidy tiny little boxes do Scripture violence and God’s perspective violence.

imho, of course.


14,390 posted on 05/09/2007 8:08:09 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix
We were created in His image and given dominion on earth. He created us in His likeness so that we may be reasonable, merciful and moral beings, not helpless morons.

As you well know, any person can have all of those good qualities, and yet be damned to hell. It is God's grace that saves, and we are "helpless" in the sense that we cannot manufacture it ourselves. It must be given to us.

That we use those blessings to condemn ourselves to hell is not His, but our choosing. We can equally choose to cleave to God and be saved. It's a choice, for the wicked do not seek after God (cf Ps 10:4).

Mostly true. We just disagree on who the driving force behind that decision is.

God offers His saving grace to all because He desires to have all men saved (cf 1 Tim 2:4), and He does not desire or delight in death (perdition) even of the wicked (cf Eze 18:23) or anyone for that matter (cf Eze 18:32).

I agree that God does not delight in perdition, but you describe a very weak God who most often fails to get what He wants. The God you and I believe in is omnipotent, which means that He ALWAYS gets what He wants according to His good, pleasing, and perfect will. By definition, it is impossible for an omnipotent being to fail to get what He wants. You can argue that God WANTED to leave salvation up to us, but that doesn't square with a literal interpretation of Him wanting all to be saved.

He offers to everyone, not only some, precisely because He loves everyone, even the wicked.

You have been showed all the scripture contradicting this idea. God does not love the damned, or else He would have saved them. He is omnipotent. To say that God treasures man's free will over and above His own love for His creation is like saying a good parent would let his 4-year-old play in traffic because the child wanted to. It makes zero sense. God's love for HIS children is MUCH stronger than that. And the parent-child comparison isn't even close. Our own human children are WAY more mature and capable than we adults are compared to God. Human history proves this true.

14,731 posted on 05/17/2007 6:33:49 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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