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To: kosta50; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis; .30Carbine
Paul never said he was a Christian. I have no doubt that when he was converted, whether the way he claims or not — it doesn't matter, he did not think he was "switching" to a new religion. He considered himself a Jew, and his faith, whether with or without Christ was always Jewish. The fact that he treated Gentiles as 'second class citizens" as far as Mosaic Law was concerned, circumcision and kosher habits does not mean he considered the faith to something new and not Jewish.

After conversion, Paul always said he was a follower of Christ, what we call today a "Christian". My view is that real NT Christianity is the fulfillment of RIGHTEOUS OT Judaism, as opposed to common OT Judaism at the time. Paul was not practicing righteous OT Judaism just prior to conversion, so I DO think he saw his new faith as a significant change. However, I think he also must have understood the point I'm making here. The new illuminates the old and completes it. ... So, whatever words he used, it is clear that Paul considered himself what we would call a Christian, as opposed to what we would call a Jew.

FK: "The disciples HAD no worries, comparatively, but when Jesus went to Gethsemane, we saw His human nature."

Christ is a perfect fusion but not confusion of two perfect nature's, one divine, the other human. What that means is that their relationship is in perfect harmony. Christ may have felt human needs and desires but He never did anything to counter His divine nature. The two were are in perfect harmony. Otherwise, Christ would not be perfect.

I fully agree and I think you said it very well. :) I still think of the "Nestorian controversy" that was earlier on this thread. So, I thought I would just ask you. How would you describe the workings of the two perfect natures when (a) Jesus supernaturally healed, and (b) he prayed to the Father? I always got in trouble when I tried. :)

So, no, at no time was Christ not aware of His human or divine nature. If by "His human nature" you mean doubt, that would be an indication that He was not perfect and did not believe in Himself, but fell for the temptation of doubt.

I didn't mean "doubt", I meant something that a deity would not say from the core of His essence, unless it was an insincere performance, and I don't think it was. So, how do we describe that? I agree that the two natures are together, and in full harmony, but in the Bible we see Christ doing and saying things that appear incompatible with one or the other of the natures. So, for description, I say things like "here we see His human nature". Then I get in trouble. :)

14,176 posted on 05/08/2007 4:00:19 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis; .30Carbine
Wow, you really dig deep and answer all your posts, no matter how old. Please consider yourself complimented.

My view is that real NT Christianity is the fulfillment of RIGHTEOUS OT Judaism, as opposed to common OT Judaism at the time

The faith God gave mankind is not Judaism, FK. He gave it to the Jews first because they were chosen to do the awesome task of spreading it to the rest of mankind, but not as a nation; rather, through few brave and dedicated individuals.

Christianity represents that true faith, spread to the rest of the mankind and not confined to one nation, or "owned" by one nation. So, we can't call it Judaism. Judaism is what it was not supposed to be.

And it is should not be confused with Judaism. That's why we have no business seeking "concordance" in Judaism. Christianity reveals everything we need to know.

That's why we must read and approach the OT through the lens of the NT and treat it as an overture, heavily tainted with Jewish mindset and a special interest group bias that is evident especially in the Chronicles and the Kings.

It was +Paul who proclaimed for the first time that the followers of Christ, and recepients of God's saving grace are not just the Jews, but the Gentiles as well.

Whether that was something God dictated to him (which I don't believe) or whether it is something +Paul realized in his heart as merciful God's desire (which I do believe) is irrelevant. He unlocked the final mystery of God's revelation that starts with Genesis and ends with the NT. The whole Bible is one giant Gospel (if you filter narrow national taint out of it).

+Paul did nto consider being a follower of Christ as a new religion, so he does not speak as someone who "left" Judaism or ceased being a Jew. He realized that the righteous faith you speak of is not narrow-interest national religion, but that God's love is a supra-national ambrella that has room for the Jew and Gentile alike and that he gives a soul to each and every one of us.

Think about it, if you feel blessed, don't you wish to share your blessings, and pray to God to bless all the people? What is perfect mercy if not soemthing that can be applied to all us, and not only some of us; for we are all sinners in need of mercy. The only way we can be left out of God's loving grace is if we refuse it!

14,178 posted on 05/08/2007 5:38:37 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis; .30Carbine
How would you describe the workings of the two perfect natures when (a) Jesus supernaturally healed, and (b) he prayed to the Father? I always got in trouble when I tried

Our Lord Jesus Christ was the High Priest in His human nature. He prayed a lot, as any priest should. The healing is the divine power that comes in response to our prayers. Since His prayers were always true and perfect prayers, they were always fulfilled. Ours are not, because our motivations are not always true or pure, but selfish and ungreatful.

He prayed to the Father because who else can He pray to? Praying to Himself would be vain, and Christ was the epitome of divine humility.

A true priest is someone in whom you see no person, but only Christ's love. His ego is as transparent as glass, and God's love shines as bright as the sun; in most of us, there is a heavy layer of impurity that obscures most if not all of that light.

Although I am sure Christ childhood would be an inteersting topic, we know next to nothing about Christ's childhood years. Anything other than His ministry, His priesthood, would deter and draw attention to Him in His human nature, and away from His divine nature and mission.

in the Bible we see Christ doing and saying things that appear incompatible with one or the other of the natures. So, for description, I say things like "here we see His human nature". Then I get in trouble

You get in trouble only with Kolokotronis. :) But, that's to be expected: he is a moody, xenophobic Greek (which is why he says God gave Greeks Orthodoxy because they needed it more than anyone else; I disagree) :) At least Kolo is trying to help you; he may be moody, but he cares.

We Serbs are not as nice. We would be eating people for breakfast if God didn't have mercy on our wretched bunch and told the Greeks to give us some of that True Faith, because we needed it more than they did! :)

In the Gospels, Christ is God and High Priest. There is nothing incompatible about either. We can speak of His natures only in the abstract, such as Him dying in His human nature (mindbody as the Greeks call it), subject to corruption (desires, passions, doubts) but His human behavior is always in His priestly role (perfect obedience to God, resistance to corruption and passion through prayer, self-denial, and free will).

14,179 posted on 05/08/2007 6:37:58 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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