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To: jo kus
I didn't say that every Roman Catholic or Orthodox follower was spiritually dead. Forth, Do you know what a "Church" is? It is a community of believers. Not a building. Not a denomination. It is the individuals of the community. Thus, when you say "your 'Church' is as 'spiritually dead as they are" You are saying the entire community is spiritually dead. Is that the wisest thing to say? I don't think so. I think such comments demand at least an apology and a clarification.

No, a 'church' has two connotations.

One, is the Church as the Body of Christ and that connotation is spiritual.

Thus, only believers in Christ enter into that relationship with Him, being 'born again'.

That is the Church as 'organism', growing and alive.

The other connotation of a church is as an organization.

An unbeliever can be a member of that type of church, as many are.

Now, a organizational 'church' that does not teach the truth of God's saving grace, and substitutes man's traditions for God's truth is a dead church.

The doctrines of both Churches are dead, depending on the traditions of men, rather than the words of God (Mk.7:7-10).

That is your personal opinions, which, quite frankly, totally ignores YOUR traditions of men, such as Sola Scriptura, an invention of MEN of the 1500's that ironically is not found in the Bible anywhere, and Sola Fide, an invention of MEN of the 1500's that is DENIED EXPLICITLY in the Bible, in particular, James 2.

Christ preached Sola Scriptura.

As for Sola Fide, it is very much taught in the New Testament by Paul (not of works-lest any man should boast) and James is not speaking of works leading to eternal life.

So, your constant appeal to James to avoid what Paul clearly states only shows your determination to reject the truth.

Don't bother with your lame explanations. I've heard them and I am not in the mood to get sick on a weekend...

Funny, you can't refute those explanations, nor can you explain away what Paul is clearly stating.

Look to the beam in your eye, forth, look to the beam...

And you ought to look to the scriptures and learn from the failure of the Jews,

But Israel which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone...They have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge for they being ignorant of God's righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Rom.9:31-32,10:2-4)

Regards

Likewise.

14,085 posted on 05/07/2007 4:30:18 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (For what saith the scripture? (Rom.4:3))
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To: fortheDeclaration
a 'church' has two connotations. One, is the Church as the Body of Christ and that connotation is spiritual. Thus, only believers in Christ enter into that relationship with Him, being 'born again'. That is the Church as 'organism', growing and alive. The other connotation of a church is as an organization. An unbeliever can be a member of that type of church, as many are.

True to a point. However, that ignores the parables of Christ that discuss those trying to enter the Kingdom, that Body of believers, are a mixed group. Christ talks about a winnowing at the harvest time, a separation between goats and sheep, weeds and wheat. This tells us that even the "nominal Christians" are part of the Body, thus, making the organizational "Church" more closely in tune with the Body of Christ, not the "hidden" component.

Now, a organizational 'church' that does not teach the truth of God's saving grace, and substitutes man's traditions for God's truth is a dead church

Now we are entering the realm of your personal opinion. Your opinions of the "teaching of God's saving truth" are just that, opinions. They are one of many different possible readings of the Scriptures. By our fruits, we are known. And I see lots of good fruit within the Catholic Church.

Christ preached Sola Scriptura.

Ridiculous. I have not had ONE Protestant prove that to me from the entire Bible yet, and I have seen all the arguments. Now, you are narrowing it down to just Christ's words? Prove it.

As for Sola Fide, it is very much taught in the New Testament by Paul (not of works-lest any man should boast) and James is not speaking of works leading to eternal life.

We've already been through this, and you are confused if you think that James is talking about the physical life. Talking about twisting Scriptures out of whack! We ALL physically die, whether we have faith or not! James is talking about spiritual death, because our life and death in THAT realm is determined by our faith and works - since faith alone is dead. Works of love, in faith, don't save our physical body!!!!

Didn't Peter say that twisting Paul's writings leads to destruction? (2 Pt 3) I'd advise you re-analyze the false belief of sola fide that is explicitly denied in Scriptures

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Yes, BELIEVES! TODAY. Not 10 years ago like you seem to say with your "once saved, always saved". Christ expects us to believe today and tomorrow and so on. Present tense.

Regards

14,088 posted on 05/07/2007 6:09:01 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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