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To: fortheDeclaration
a 'church' has two connotations. One, is the Church as the Body of Christ and that connotation is spiritual. Thus, only believers in Christ enter into that relationship with Him, being 'born again'. That is the Church as 'organism', growing and alive. The other connotation of a church is as an organization. An unbeliever can be a member of that type of church, as many are.

True to a point. However, that ignores the parables of Christ that discuss those trying to enter the Kingdom, that Body of believers, are a mixed group. Christ talks about a winnowing at the harvest time, a separation between goats and sheep, weeds and wheat. This tells us that even the "nominal Christians" are part of the Body, thus, making the organizational "Church" more closely in tune with the Body of Christ, not the "hidden" component.

Now, a organizational 'church' that does not teach the truth of God's saving grace, and substitutes man's traditions for God's truth is a dead church

Now we are entering the realm of your personal opinion. Your opinions of the "teaching of God's saving truth" are just that, opinions. They are one of many different possible readings of the Scriptures. By our fruits, we are known. And I see lots of good fruit within the Catholic Church.

Christ preached Sola Scriptura.

Ridiculous. I have not had ONE Protestant prove that to me from the entire Bible yet, and I have seen all the arguments. Now, you are narrowing it down to just Christ's words? Prove it.

As for Sola Fide, it is very much taught in the New Testament by Paul (not of works-lest any man should boast) and James is not speaking of works leading to eternal life.

We've already been through this, and you are confused if you think that James is talking about the physical life. Talking about twisting Scriptures out of whack! We ALL physically die, whether we have faith or not! James is talking about spiritual death, because our life and death in THAT realm is determined by our faith and works - since faith alone is dead. Works of love, in faith, don't save our physical body!!!!

Didn't Peter say that twisting Paul's writings leads to destruction? (2 Pt 3) I'd advise you re-analyze the false belief of sola fide that is explicitly denied in Scriptures

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Yes, BELIEVES! TODAY. Not 10 years ago like you seem to say with your "once saved, always saved". Christ expects us to believe today and tomorrow and so on. Present tense.

Regards

14,088 posted on 05/07/2007 6:09:01 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg
a 'church' has two connotations. One, is the Church as the Body of Christ and that connotation is spiritual. Thus, only believers in Christ enter into that relationship with Him, being 'born again'. That is the Church as 'organism', growing and alive. The other connotation of a church is as an organization. An unbeliever can be a member of that type of church, as many are.

True to a point. However, that ignores the parables of Christ that discuss those trying to enter the Kingdom, that Body of believers, are a mixed group. Christ talks about a winnowing at the harvest time, a separation between goats and sheep, weeds and wheat. This tells us that even the "nominal Christians" are part of the Body, thus, making the organizational "Church" more closely in tune with the Body of Christ, not the "hidden" component.

That parable (not actually referring to the church age) shows that are those who are part of churches who are not saved and backs up my view rather than yours.

Thus, they may belong to 'churches' but are not saved and thus, in the real Church, the spiritual one. (Rev.2:9)

In reality, there is no such thing as a 'norminal Christian' you either one or not.(Mark.16:16 cf 1Cor.12:13)

All churches have people in it who are not truely saved-even Baptist ones!

Now, a organizational 'church' that does not teach the truth of God's saving grace, and substitutes man's traditions for God's truth is a dead church

Now we are entering the realm of your personal opinion. Your opinions of the "teaching of God's saving truth" are just that, opinions. They are one of many different possible readings of the Scriptures. By our fruits, we are known. And I see lots of good fruit within the Catholic Church.

No, they are not 'opinions' they are clearly taught in scripture, which you reject because you take the opinions of men over the truth of God (Mk.7:7-9)

The Pharisees' were also zealous for 'good works' but that could not save them.

You are not submitting to the righteousness of God which comes by faith (Rom.9:30)

Christ preached Sola Scriptura.

Ridiculous. I have not had ONE Protestant prove that to me from the entire Bible yet, and I have seen all the arguments. Now, you are narrowing it down to just Christ's words? Prove it.

Christ never cited one man's opinion on anything.

He always used scripture to support His statements.

That is why He always spoke with power and authority

As for Sola Fide, it is very much taught in the New Testament by Paul (not of works-lest any man should boast) and James is not speaking of works leading to eternal life.

We've already been through this, and you are confused if you think that James is talking about the physical life. Talking about twisting Scriptures out of whack! We ALL physically die, whether we have faith or not! James is talking about spiritual death, because our life and death in THAT realm is determined by our faith and works - since faith alone is dead. Works of love, in faith, don't save our physical body!!!!

Nice double talk.

James is speaking to believers, not to unbelievers.

He is telling them that without works (producing fruit) they will be disciplined by God, including losing their life.

So faith alone cannot save a believer from discipline in time, if he is not obedient to God's will.

That is backed up by 1Jn.5:20 (sin unto death) and Jn.15:2 where the Lord states that the Father takes away any branch that doesn't bear fruit, but prunes those who do (testing).

Nowhere in James 2 is eternal life mentioned.

What Roman Catholics have is a 'cultic method' of interpeting scripture, using a few scriptures and ignoring all those that contradict or explain them.

Didn't Peter say that twisting Paul's writings leads to destruction? (2 Pt 3) I'd advise you re-analyze the false belief of sola fide that is explicitly denied in Scriptures

Yes, he stated that the 'unlearned and unstable' were wresting Paul's scriptures, which is exactly what you are doing to mix faith and works-which Paul stated very clearly cannot mix (Rom.11:6, Eph.2:8)

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Yes, BELIEVES! TODAY. Not 10 years ago like you seem to say with your "once saved, always saved". Christ expects us to believe today and tomorrow and so on. Present tense.

No, salvation is an event which puts you into union with Christ.

The scripture teaches that even if you lose your faith, Christ remains faithful (2Tim.2:11) since He cannot reject Himself.

So the Bible clearly states that a believer can lose his faith and still remain saved (Eph.4:30).

Paul is using the 'historical present' If Paul wanted to indicate continual action, he would have used a participle-'believing'.

Regards

Likewise.

14,314 posted on 05/09/2007 6:09:08 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (For what saith the scripture? (Rom.4:3))
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