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In post #13,844 you are discussing traducianism/creationism, or whether souls are created or propagated

I am looking at the title and it clearly says How are Human Souls Created. It doesn't say "Propagated," HD, does it? Just wanted to make sure we are reading the same words. In this post you argued that souls are propagated-not created...My post was in regards to your traducianism/creationism argument in post #13,844. You made a statement that it is Gnostic and pagan to believe in the pre-existent theory

My reply to your post says "The soul doesn't propagate; the soul is created at the moment of conception." (13,921). I don't remember making a case for propagation of the soul; just against its pre-existence.

More importantly, post 13,844 clearly states that – regardless which theory is correct – both agree that the soul does not exist prior to conception. Are we reading the same text, HD or did you not read all of 13,844?

Yet when provided scriptural evidence (such as Ecc 12) to the contrary it is ignored

Talk about noticing a thorn in your brother's eye, and not seeing a log in yours! If you read post 13,844 as you seem to imply, you would realize that it contains at least six references that lead to the conclusion that the soul does not pre-exist the body — which references you simply choose to ignore.

You made a statement that it is Gnostic and pagan to believe in the pre-existent theory. Yet when provided scriptural evidence (such as Ecc 12) to the contrary it is ignored

Ecc 12 makes no reference whether the soul pre-existed or not. It simply states what we believe, namely that God gives us the soul and that, after death, the sould goes back to Him.

God breathed into Adam his soul, meaning that Adam soul must have existed before Adam existed

Christ’s soul existed prior to His birth-it must have since there are multiple examples in the Old Testament of Christ’s appearances (such as Melchizedek)

Jesus' soul was created at Incarnation.

Why this is such an important issue is that you would have us believe that the creator of souls is man

I am speechless. This is one of the most convoluted, out-of-the-left-field "conclusions" I have read so far. Where and when did I ever suggest that man creates the soul? Please provide a quote.

I am not a student of Origen, but a reading of what he taught states that he “espoused a Platonic view of eternal souls achieving perfection while escaping the temporary, imperfect material world. He imagined even demons being reunited with God.”

Origen was condemned for both his teaching of the pre-existence of the souls and his universal salvation theory, both of which are alien to Christianity. Sadly, some early Church Fathers (i.e. +Gregory of Nyssa, a one time student of Origen) subscribed to the universal salvation theory.

Quite frankly, this sounds like a variation of the Catholic view of purgatory.

The Church never considered Hell "temporary." the bible even states that God prepared a lake of eternal fire for the devil and his angles (cf Mat 25:41). (The idea of purgatory doe snot include Satan and his demons. But the idea of an interim state of the soul is based on the particular (immediate) judgment after death (cf Heb 9:27) which is not the Final Judgment.

And, not to offend, but isn’t the Orthodox view one of man getting more and more like Christ as he sheds off the things of this world? This sound far more in keeping with Origen’s view than us “westerners”

No offense taken. The Orthodox teaching is based on the NT, that we should strive to be(come)* perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. (cf Mat 5:48) It is a commandment, HD, for us to honestly try to achieve that even if we honestly fail.

*the Greek text is actually in future tense

I don't remember making a case for propagation of the soul; just against its pre-existence.

Traducianism is the theory that a soul is generated by the physical parents along with the body.

This is propagation. If you don't believe in the pre-existence of the soul, then you must believe in parential creation of the soul (propagation).

More importantly, post 13,844 clearly states that – regardless which theory is correct – both agree that the soul does not exist prior to conception. Are we reading the same text, HD or did you not read all of 13,844?

Second, if God creates each individual soul at the moment it is needed, the separation of soul and body is held firm. The ultimate answer to the question is that the soul / spirit does not exist before it inhabits the body.

Well, now how did he draw THAT conclusion. Does he know when God creates a soul?

Talk about noticing a thorn in your brother's eye, and not seeing a log in yours! If you read post 13,844 as you seem to imply, you would realize that it contains at least six references that lead to the conclusion that the soul does not pre-exist the body — which references you simply choose to ignore.

The six references posted by this author that you feel argues against pre-existence are not very convincing. For example:

(A) In Genesis 2:7 God breathed the breath of life into Adam, something which did not happen again. (Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)

(B) Adam had a son in his own likeness (Genesis 5:3). (Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:) - This doesn't state anything about the soul. All it says it that Seth was in his likeness.

God did no further creating (Genesis 2:2-3). Seems to me that if God did no further creating and ALL things were made through Him as John 1 states, that means all souls were created in the beginning.

Ecc 12 makes no reference whether the soul pre-existed or not.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It states very clearly that the spirit shall return to God. If it is returning then it must have pre-existed.

I am speechless. This is one of the most convoluted, out-of-the-left-field "conclusions" I have read so far.

Where and when did I ever suggest that man creates the soul? Please provide a quote.

Origen was condemned for both his teaching of the pre-existence of the souls and his universal salvation theory, both of which are alien to Christianity.

The Orthodox teaching is based on the NT, that we should strive to be(come)* perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. (cf Mat 5:48) It is a commandment, HD, for us to honestly try to achieve that even if we honestly fail.

You're not alone in this belief. I think 95% of Christisdom believes this. Personally I don't. Only through trying to know and love the Son will we keep His commandments; whereas the only reason we keep His commandments is simply because of the Son.