[HarleyD]

I don't remember making a case for propagation of the soul; just against its pre-existence.

If your argument is against the pre-existence of the soul, then it raises the question as to how the soul comes into being? From your article:
Traducianism is the theory that a soul is generated by the physical parents along with the body.

This is propagation. If you don't believe in the pre-existence of the soul, then you must believe in parential creation of the soul (propagation).

More importantly, post 13,844 clearly states that – regardless which theory is correct – both agree that the soul does not exist prior to conception. Are we reading the same text, HD or did you not read all of 13,844?

Yes, I read it all. Even with my short attention span it's not very long. The author makes a conclusion without any support of facts. He simple states:
Second, if God creates each individual soul at the moment it is needed, the separation of soul and body is held firm. The ultimate answer to the question is that the soul / spirit does not exist before it inhabits the body.

Well, now how did he draw THAT conclusion. Does he know when God creates a soul?

Talk about noticing a thorn in your brother's eye, and not seeing a log in yours! If you read post 13,844 as you seem to imply, you would realize that it contains at least six references that lead to the conclusion that the soul does not pre-exist the body — which references you simply choose to ignore.

I didn't know that I was noticing any thorn. You're the one casting around Gnostic labels.

The six references posted by this author that you feel argues against pre-existence are not very convincing. For example:

(A) In Genesis 2:7 God breathed the breath of life into Adam, something which did not happen again. (Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.) - You say this didn't happen again but you've failed to explain how Eve received her soul.

(B) Adam had a son in his own likeness (Genesis 5:3). (Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:) - This doesn't state anything about the soul. All it says it that Seth was in his likeness.

God did no further creating (Genesis 2:2-3). Seems to me that if God did no further creating and ALL things were made through Him as John 1 states, that means all souls were created in the beginning.

I know the author sounds like he is trying to present both views but he fails to convince me.

Ecc 12 makes no reference whether the soul pre-existed or not.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It states very clearly that the spirit shall return to God. If it is returning then it must have pre-existed.

I am speechless. This is one of the most convoluted, out-of-the-left-field "conclusions" I have read so far.

Then you obviously haven't read several of my other posts.

Where and when did I ever suggest that man creates the soul? Please provide a quote.

From your logic and website. You are saying that God stopped creating back in Genesis 2 (which I would happen to agree with). If this is the case, then how can a new born baby born today have a soul if God has not already created them? Where did this soul come from and when? Please explain.

Origen was condemned for both his teaching of the pre-existence of the souls and his universal salvation theory, both of which are alien to Christianity.

Can you provide a reference? My understanding is that Origen view of the soul extended far more than simply the pre-existence issue.

The Orthodox teaching is based on the NT, that we should strive to be(come)* perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. (cf Mat 5:48) It is a commandment, HD, for us to honestly try to achieve that even if we honestly fail.

You're not alone in this belief. I think 95% of Christisdom believes this. Personally I don't. Only through trying to know and love the Son will we keep His commandments; whereas the only reason we keep His commandments is simply because of the Son.

[kosta50]

This is propagation. If you don't believe in the pre-existence of the soul, then you must believe in parential creation of the soul (propagation)

Traducianism states that God created the soul of Adam and that this soul is propagated from generation to generation, at the moment of conception. It doesn't say that the parents "create" the soul. The spark of life (anima) given to Adam is pased on to every generation through the God-created act of pro-creation.

Creationism (which is by far the most widely held view) states that God creates the soul of every human being at conception.

Neither one teachies pre-existence of the soul prior to conception and neither one teaches that humans "create" a soul.

The author makes a conclusion without any support of facts

And the pre-existence of the souls is biblical? Not only is it not biblical, but it is pagan (see post 13,951) The author states that Genesis and other Biblical refrences give us an insight that God gave Adam a soul, not that this soul and all the souls of humans were pre-fabcricted in God's laboratory from before foundations of the world.

You're the one casting around Gnostic labels

Maybe because the Gnostics believed in pre-existence of the souls? You find it strange that the two may be connected?

You say this didn't happen again but you've failed to explain how Eve received her soul.

I didn't say anything. I simply stated two Christian belifs, both of which agree that the souls are not pre-fabricated.

Eve received her soul from God, whether through Adam, or ex-nihilo.

This doesn't state anything about the soul. All it says it that Seth was in his likeness.

God created us in His likeness and out children are created in our (fallen) likeness. certainly, God didn't pre-fabricate defective souls! Our souls are wounded and made defective through Adam's sin. It simply supports the propgation theory.

to me that if God did no further creating and ALL things were made through Him as John 1 states, that means all souls were created in the beginning.

The propagation theory states that God created Adam's soul, not that it pre-existed Adam. Adam was already created as a lifeless man. God then breaths life into him at that moment. God didn't pre-create light. He said: let here be light. He also said Let Us make man. God doesn't need to pre-create anything.

The creation of Adam seems like a single event with two steps: clay, soul. No pre-fab parts in it.

It states very clearly that the spirit shall return to God. If it is returning then it must have pre-existed.

That's a complete non-sequitur, HD. This only means that God gave us the soul and when we die that soul goes back to Him (it doesn't die). There is nothing in Ecc 12:7 that even remotely suggests the soul was pre-existent. It only states that it came from God.

You are saying that God stopped creating back in Genesis 2 (which I would happen to agree with). If this is the case, then how can a new born baby born today have a soul if God has not already created them? Where did this soul come from and when? Please explain.

I am not saying this; I am stating one of the two Christian theories (beliefs) on how human soul is created. This particlar segment refers to the propagation theory. The newborn baby gets the soul which was originally given to Adam by procreation, a God-created method of passing the life from generation to generation.

Obviously the Creationist theory (which is held by most Christians) is that God didn't stop creating and that He creates a soul for each and every one of us individually at the moment of conception.

Can you provide a reference? My understanding is that Origen view of the soul extended far more than simply the pre-existence issue

Of course. The proceedings of the Fifth Ecumenical Council (553 AD):

"THE ANATHEMAS AGAINST ORIGEN

IF anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema... "

Warning, the proceedings are long (considering your self-assesed attention span).

You're not alone in this belief. I think 95% of Christisdom believes this. Personally I don't. Only through trying to know and love the Son will we keep His commandments; whereas the only reason we keep His commandments is simply because of the Son

How is your love for the Son expressed by ingoring His commandment? Nothing in it says that we do it without going through the Son, who is the Light, the Life and the Way to the Father.